Vote here

As of 5:46 this morning the "yes" choice was ahead...

Obviously I voted yes because we homeschool.

I voted no. But you guys knew that! And you love me anyways!! :thanks: :P

I voted yes. Shame on those who think otherwise! :smack: :cheeky:

BTW: YES is still way ahead....B) 67.88% No is at 32.12%

Don't blame them. They are just unaware. They buy into all the hype that the media and public school officials spew and have absolutely no hands on experience to show them otherwise. Yeah, they all claim "I know a family who...." But as for the big picture..their eyes are not open to seeing it. Thing is there are more families out ther who send their kids to public school and totally neglect and abuse their kids and hide them from the realities of the world than there are homeschooling so that argument is a strawman.

One woman on CF said that she edits her daughter's disney movies to remove all violence or hint of death or anything that's not happy happy joy joy--She removed half of Bambi to "protect" her daughter.. :rollseyes:

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deb=pwned

I may be opening a can of worms here but....

Who is answering this poll? SAHMs who have time to? Advocates for homeschooling? A poll on website is already limiting the number of people participating in the poll to the people who would visit that particular site. This is a "hot button issue" with many homeschooling parents who immediately get defensive concerning homeschooling. It's as if they make a decision and then dig their heels in unwilling to hear other ideas on the subject. At least, that has been my experience...

I have to defend my profession. Hi, my name is CJ and I am a public school teacher. I went to four years of college and have taken at least a dozen tests to prove that I am capable of teaching children in grades K-8 in general education and K-12 in social studies/history. Every year I have to complete over 80 hours of continuing education credits and I normally exceed that by a rather large margin.

In as much as a plumber is an expert in their field, I am an expert in mine. To think that ANY PARENT (regardless of education level or expertise) can teach a child as well as I can is, frankly, insulting.

I understand most of the reasons for homeschooling, and most of them are because of decisions made at the federal and state levels- not decisions in the classroom. I am a good teacher. Do I have to teach some things that may bother some parents? Sometimes, but VERY infrequently and if a parent is involved, they can pull their child from the lesson or simply have discussions with their child when they get home about what was taught. I only have your children for 6 hours a day. There are MANY, MANY more hours during the day for lessons on character, morals, theology, etc. Those need to be taught by YOU but you don't need to homeschool to do that!

I am certain that a student whose parents are involved in the child's education and send them to public school will learn more and be more prepared for university then a child who is strictly homeschooled. The problem with public schools is the fact that many parents see it as a way of avoiding responsibility for their child's education. Just because someone is teaching the content, does NOT mean that your job is done! If you hire a gardner to come plant you a lawn and come by every week and mow it, it is still your job to water it every day or it will die!

If you feel you MUST homeschool, do so under direction from a certified teacher! I may homeschool, but even being an "expert in education" I would want influence and lessons taught by teachers who are better than me at teaching science, or physics, or whatever. If a teacher at a public school is better at teaching something than I am, I want my child to learn from them! I'm not the best at teaching everything and I want my children to have the best education they can get. I guarantee it WON'T look like regular homeschool with one person teaching everything. I also guarantee that it WON'T look like many parents of public schoolers where my child gets dropped off at the school and I don't even look back to see what is going on there.

Take responsibility for your children's education but that DOES NOT have to mean homeschooling your child.

Of course... more people send their kids to public school then homeschool... hardly an argument for homeschooling your kids, isn't it?

You've been missed Siege. Welcome back. :hug:

I didn't vote. It's not a yes/no answer. It's a 'depends on the child' answer.

I think there are misconceptions on both sides.

:amen:

CJ I'm sure you're a great teacher - there are some out there ;). I think a lot of teachers (not saying you do) take offense at homeschooling because like you say, you've taken class after class on how to teach etc, etc. The fact remains though that of those kids who ARE homeschooled (because homeschooling is obviously not right for EVERY family) they do better educationally as a whole than those who aren't. And yes, that's even for those children whose parents have nothing more than a high school education and who are not under the direction of someone "qualified".

You've GOT to be kidding!! What woman is that?? :blink: Bambi rocks!!! One of Isaiah's favourites since he was 4 years old.

That's so true. Can't deny the stats!

I don't remember who it was. Its been a couple of years. But there were other moms who did similar things. It was in the parenting forum...That one just took the cake..

I wonder. How many parents here consider watching (entertainment) movies educational? There were countless times when my kids came home from public school and I'd ask what they learned today. Oh, they just watched movies and played all day, BUT they came home with this PILE OF HOMEWORK!!! This is one thing (out of many others) that totally pissed me and several other parents out there off. I looked at the school's attendance this year and that school alone has dropped nearly 100 students since last year.

So..........CJ............want a job here? :angel: We could definitely use more teachers like you! But ya gotta look out for the whole whack of nutjobs that are on the board as well.....:screwy:

Not unaware. Not "buying into" anything. I'm not saying homeschooling is bad, I just don't think it's the be-all/end-all.

:agree:

:agree:

From what I have witnessed - not heard, WITNESSED - Homeschooling rarely works....

Of 7 people I know that have been homeschooled
1 person graduated ontime but her people skills were sorely lacking
5 Graduated much later than they should have 2 of which only garnered GEDs instead of actual diplomas
and 1 graduated early is a super genius but socially awkward and works well beneath what he should be able to pull down with his intelligence because he's a geek hippy......


I don't see it working for Zach I see him flipping burgers and mugging people.....

Locks my browser when I try to go to it... but I'd vote no

Actually I would think that would depend on the subject......

Think I can prolly teach my kid to repair a computer better than any teacher outside of computer class... Or first aid better than anyone with lower than EMT-D training....

Then again those are my fields of expertise... Not to belittle you or any teacher but I stand by Teachers can only do so much with the tools and the time they have with the kids...

I think Parents should participate in their children's education.... bolster where teachers need help, and stay the hell out of their way in areas where we are out of our depths.... but I still think it depends on the subject...

Everyone has anecdotal evidence though. I can tell you about all the public schooled people I know that public school didn't work for and all the the people that homeschooling worked for. That's why we need to look at the practice as whole and not just at the few whack jobs we know or have heard of at either extreme. The fact remains that kids who ARE homeschooled on the WHOLE do better academically than those who are not public schooled - statistics back this up. That's not to say that everyone should homeschool but it does show that those who decide to homeschool have obviously chosen the right choice for THEIR family because the kids have done so well.

Right, Sarah. You hit the nail on the head. Each family has to make the choice that's right for them and their child. Your kids (String's, Honey's, etc) are doing great in homeschool. Andie is doing fabulous in public school. It's dependent on the families and each individual kid.

I'm glad you take pride in your profession, and I'm sure you are a great teacher. My inability to send my children to public schools, in good conscience, has little to do with the teachers, so I don't think it's reasonable to take homeschooling as a personal insult. In reality, it's the system of education which is broken. Although some teachers may try their best, adequately meeting the needs of a full classroom of kids is impossible, regardless of how skilled the teacher may be. They may think everyone's coming along at their own pace, but they are fooling themselves if they believe everyone is being challenged to their full potential and those who are behind are being given the full-time attention needed to help them overcome their educational hurdles. You can't teach a slow-learning child full-time, because you've got at least half a dozen other children who need your time.

Hard statistics disprove this assumption. You may have a hard time understanding how it can be, but statistics consistently prove homeschooled children excel academically, and are better socialized than their publicly schooled counterparts--don't look for the NEA to publicize this, though!

There is probably little motivation for teachers to give up time to advise homeschooling families, but if they want to help, giving tips would be greatly appreciated, I'm sure.

Reality: One-on-one teaching, tailored to the exact needs of a student, is the most effective way to transmit knowledge. In a school system, this isn't possible. Also, you've got to take into account the total public school experience, not just the curriculum or qualifications of the staff. Although some students come through the system mostly in tact, peer pressure in school to fit in is extremely overwhelming for most kids. Unfortunately this pressure is usually not for the kids to uphold a high standard of righteousness, in fact, these values are harshly ridiculed in general. Homeschooled children are mostly free of this pressure . . . and by the time they are in college or the "real world" they will be more mature and better able to make decisions which are in line with their personal goals.

Again, it's dependent on the school system. I only posted this in my journal, but Andie's being tested for the gifted program. Our school is VERY involved in each and every child, they are continually tested and monitored. They've got gifted teachers/classes as well as one-on-one tutoring during school (which I was a reading tutor this year for 2 first grade children) as well as after school and throughout the summer for children that may need extra help, that aren't up to where the other kids are in their class.

I don't think you can lump all public schools into one horrible/awful/non-caring group, just as you can't lump all homeschoolers into one group.

My 2 cents. :thanks:

Like I said. Both sides are misinformed.

I agree with you :)

I didn't say, uncaring, because I believe there are many earnest teachers who are doing their best to meet the needs of each student, and then there are many who are exhausted and burned out. Small class sizes are good, and one-to-one learning is even better. This cannot be duplicated in a communal education environment, although with gifted-programs, some students can get more individual attention and be challenged, but what percentage are in these types of programs? I'm glad your experience has been good, but when you vote on issues like this, please consider the general environment of public education, not the exceptional ones, which are "exceptions."

What about the new interpretation of the policy of "separation of church and state," which is unconstitutional, and at best a new interpretation of the establishment clause. Do you think this disadvantages teachers who cannot convey wisdom to their students, because head knowledge alone, isn't enough? You have to apply what you learn with wisdom, which comes down to us from God. Faith and reason are inseparable, and to teach one without the other is like riding a bike with only one wheel.

Too many pitfalls in communal education. :nono:

Statistically you can say anything and back it up, that's the thing with statistics you can always spin the results...

Statistically Flying is safer than driving.... There are also fewer planes in the air then cars on the road.....

If you look at statistics yeah the numbers are gonna look better if you have smaller base to judge by.......

Homeschooling isn't the perfect answer, public schools aren't the perfect answer, we were better off when we were living in secluded communities before this mess of technology came and screwed us all up.... but that's a rant for a different time....

Like others have said it has to be a case by case basis... My son isn't going to do any better in Homeschool than he did in Public school, he just doesn't care nothing we can do is gonna change that

My Daughter wants to be homeschooled so bad it's not funny, it's not gonna happen

She thinks that it'll be easier, she keeps telling us that my MIL can do it...

Sorry I think my MIL might excel at teaching my kids about Jesus and the Bible, and crafts... I don't see her doing particularly well in science math and english

And I see her very possibly staying away from darwinism completely, again another rant for another day because I support evolution, I just think they need to finish the theory.....


Sometimes we luck out with education, sometimes we can't... My Oldest 2 nieces both were in public High Schools and Homeschooled both failed them



To say that any one group on the whole does better than the other group is purely and simply wrong.... because if one group on the WHOLE was better there would be 0% failure on that side. Both sides have failure, both sides have very well educated and socialized individuals and both sides have losers that should be cut from the gene pool.

Good post.

Let me clear one thing up.. right now middle of a killer migraine, blood sugar levels are whacked out so kinda cranky and might come off as pissy.....

I am not saying that one is better than the other, both have their merits both are flawed as well, both have turned out exceptional individuals, both have turned out less than desirable results....

One will never be 100% better than the other, they both will have their merits and their failings and trying to compare the two are like trying to compare pineapples and porcupines.... yeah they both start off alive and end up dead but that middle part makes a BIG difference.......

Jenny Craig helped me lose 10 pounds in a week... oh yeah I lost 10 pounds cutting out processed sugar, flour and artificial flavors and running 3 miles a day..... both work for some not for others neither work as a whole......

Ummm..Not really. Points are unsupported and merely hackneyed cliches... No evidence supports them and they merely echo widespread misconception.

The statistics he is referring to are not "spun". They are SAT scores and other major test scores that aren't altered or changed and would be illegal to do so.

The flight statistics take into account per capita travel rather than only number of planes in the air vs. cars on the road.

You have no reason to believe that the numbers of students tested is not taken into account. And if they were not taken into account the homeschoolers would be at a disadvantage since they are the smaller group. And the average raw scores of HS students are compared to PS students and overall the homeschoolers test scores are on average 30-37% higher than their public school peers.

So you say its an all or nothing deal?? How illogical is that? Just because there are some failures in both groups doesn't mean that they are equally failing. Perhaps there are more failures in one group than the other and the evidence clearly has proven that to be the case.

Like I said above, just because you can find examples of failures on both sides doesn't mean that both are equal in their successes and failures. You have to look at the numbers and percentages. If one has fewer failures than the other, taking into account the per capita size, the only responsible thing to do carefully consider the factual evidence and not just throw out unsupported cliches and gut assumptions.

Being rushed out of the house now. Back later..

You don't have to alter a statistic to spin it....

And again all I'm saying is both fail I've seen both fail since there is failure neither one is better than the other... until you can come up with an educational standard that will not fail it will continue to be flawed and worked upon....

But I've also seen both succeed..... The failures of both far exceed the success rates....

But then again you have to get the students to actually give a flying fig - THAT is where the true battle is....

My SAT scores didn't suck because my education was inadequate they sucked because I didn't care

I tanked in school because I was lazy, not because my educational system was lacking....

Yeah public school allows people to fall through the cracks, allows the lazy ones to disappear and get lost in the throngs but I would have been a lazy fool in home school as well


I honestly feel that it's not the educators fault, it's the student for not wanting to learn.... That happens in both arenas

Raspy, Raspy, Raspy...

Yes, you can make statistics say anything you want but this is where common sense comes in and why studies are evaluated for their reliability. Let me try to think of a non hot button example. Ok, let's talk about seat belts. You can find statisics out there that show how it's safer NOT to wear a seat belt because x of people had worn a seat belt and got trapped in a burning car and died as a result. But that doesn't make the studies, coupled with common sense, that show it is safer TO wear a seat belt invalid.

Your cars and planes comparrison doesn't hold water IMO. You don't just look at the numbers but the percentage. The reason that planes are safer is not because there's less of them but because less percentage of travelers die flying than driving. Has nothing to with a specific number.

And I don't think smaller numbers make automatically screw things to make things look better - just like you know a small number of homeschoolers and they look overwhelmingly bad to you. But again we need to look at percentages rather than specific numbers.

But that's just it. Some people will look at Zach who's being homeschooled and say "Look! Homeschooling doesn't work!" when in fact the problem is Zach and not the homeschooling (or the public schooling).

But don't you see that there's just as big an agenda in public school? You don't like that your MIL would not teach Darwinism. Well I don't like that public schools don't teach Intelligent Design.

Raspy, this statement doesn't even make sense. There are failure rates in everything in life because we're dealing with humans. Fot one group to do better in the whole it means that OVERALL they do better and not that there is zero failure rate.

If you can tell me what the flaws are in this independent study I'd like to hear them.

:dunno: I thought is was a good post. :dunno:




Good post Raspy.

Busy working but wanted to quickly post that it isn't the homeschool or public school that causes these "homeschoolers" to do better on test scores- it's caring parents. In order to homeschool, you have to care about your child enough to do the teaching yourself... such is not the case for a public schooler. I'd pit the students in my class who have involved parents against your homeschooled kids any day of the week and twice on Sunday. I'm busy but I'll post more later...

Hey, I'm gonna stay out from here on. I've got much more to think about and deal with right now. Like bugs! (We're doing a unit on insects and I currently have an ant farm, cups with mealworms growing in them, and cterpillars on the way in the mail! I'm gonna start a thread about the cool things to do with mealworms tomorrow!)

Good evening all!

Love you!

EXACTLY!!

And that is the problem with 'proven and tested statistics' they can rarely accurately assess ALL the variables in given situations, involved parents being the first and probably most influencial variable in this situation. Even supposed control groups often have their own variables. In this case to even come 'close' to a reasonably accurate comparison you would have to compare statistics with homeschoolers to children in schools whose parents are actively involved in their child's education.

If any of you truly think that the 'statistics' prove your arguments on either side then you have your head in the sand and know little about data, statistics, and they way they are assessed and how to look for variables affecting outcome.

What I don't understand is why this has to be a fight? Why can't people just accept that it will be different for each child and family? Express why it is better for your family without the need for everyone to be the same. I know that some of you do but many seem to be intent on making sure everyone else does what they do. I really don't understand that lack of acceptance that we are all different - children, parents, homes, schools, teachers. Every family should make the choices that they believe best for them.

I have a number of friends who homeschool and most have done a good job of it, Some better than others, however we don't have these 'who's right?' issues. We each respect the decisions and choices of each other. We know that we obviously each believe the choices we've made are best for our children and we don't try and force it on anyone else.

I just don't get this :blink:

Hope, I'm on board. I think that both public and home schooling can be good. They can also both be really bad. Parents who care and are involved in their children's education make all the difference in the world. The stats given are BS. No study can accurately prove one method is better than the other- there are too many variables. That is the argument I'm trying to make. I've heard Basil's argument that you can't separate academics and theology... :rollseyes:

However, I guess I did just waste my time in college b/c there is apparently no science or skill involved in educating a child- anyone can do it! I wonder if I can get a refund on my tuition?

It's comments like these though that fuel the division. By saying "I guess I just wasted my time..." you're inplying that those of us who haven't spend that time in college can't adequately do the job for our children. As homeschooling parents we're constantly having to justify ourselves and it's automatically assumed that we can't do the job for our children when it's been shown time and time again that we can. I have a friend who's a teacher. In one breath she's saying how advanced Katheryn is, how great her knowledge is for one so young and then in the next breath questions my ability to teach my daughter because I'm not a "teacher". The proof of my ability is staring her right in the face but she still can't get over the fact that I'm not a "teacher".