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basil can you set your wife straight?


Our soul is totally different than our spirit...God does not reside there...

We are all born with the spirit of Adam...sin.

It's not until "conversion" that we get the Spirit of God...the Holy Spirit transforms our sinful spirit of Adam and this Holy Spirit dwells in us and "saves" us.

Our soul is our intellect, thoughts, emotions...everything NON physical which otherwise would be consider "body". It is this part of our being that LONGS for God, WORSHIPS God and ultimately is taken to heaven with resurrected bodies because the SPIRIT of God dwells in us. It is the Holy Spirit (received at conversion) that speaks, transforms and otherwise enables us to be Christians.

No--we're created good and we are born into a world that is subject sin. God creates us good and by being born into this fallen world, we become subject to its "badness"...

And it is at baptism, according to Scripture, that we receive the Holy Spirit.

We always hear about "soul saving" God "saving our souls" and of course back in the day when people were about to be executed they always said "May God have mercy on your soul".. I thik that in your case the word 'soul" and 'spirit' have been used ineterchangeably--

But that's food for another thread...

Care to start that thread Squat? :eyebrows: Or are you :chicken: ?

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So your saying the act of baptism is what "saves" us...

Your saying we can't have the Holy Spirit w/o doing some kind of work...that is, baptism...


I had a feeling you served a different Jesus string...

My Jesus was a sacrafice so that all the BELIEVTH on him shall not die, but have eternal life...

In your Bible...does it say...For God so loved the world that He offered His only son that whomsoever gets dunked in water shall receive eternal life?

I have to go with squat on this one. What of the scriptures where the Holy Spirit is imparted at times other than baptism?

No. Salvation is not a happens-in-one-moment deal. It is a lifelong process. It is at Baptism that we receive the Holy Spirit.

No. We are commanded by Jesus to be baptised. We are told that we receive the HOly Spirit at baptism. It is an act of obedience which brings to us the Holy Spirit, not a "work".

I imagine the Jesus you believe in is different than the one I do. There are so many varied interpretations of who Jesus is among the Protestant groups that even amongst yourselves you serve a "different Jesus"

Yes, but belief is not enough. Obedience is required of us. Jesus himself tells us this.

Don't misquote scripture now. Take it all together.


I really have to be leaving the house in about ten minutes so I don't have time to address the other posts or expand on this one. I'll definately get back to this because there are a million things to discuss here.. You must keep in mind, that every one out there can pull up scriptures that seem to support his point. That is why every one of the thousands of protestant groups can fully support their beliefs by the Holy Scriptures. What it comes down to is the picking and choosing of scriptures and the ignoring of others that truly shapes protestant beliefs. Whatever you want to believe can be proven by the scriptures you choose to emphasize.

I'll get back to htis later--probably tomorrow or Monday-gotta go to the store and a 2 hour service at church tonight and of course church in the morning--Don't know when I'll have time to get to this, but this could definitely be an enlightening thread.. :nod:

It's nice to have the benefit of an unbroken witness to the truth to fall back on, especially when there are questions or controversies like this, so we don't have to rest our beliefs on our assumptions, our interpretations, our ability to hear the guidance of the Holy Spirit, or the on the opinions of others, because many sincere people attempt to understand the truth, but come to different conclusions. All that matters is preserving the truth, so all we do here should be aimed at that one goal.

It's true that every denomination which exists bases its beliefs on scripture and can put together a convincing defense of their doctrines based on the Bible. Then each individual must decide which group's argument they'll accept, based on their own reasoning, but is this anyway to discover the truth? That guy String and I heard recently made a good point: if we want to have a personal relationship with Christ, they key is knowing who He really is, because He is who He is, and He's not who He's not. We must make sure we understand Him, rather than following and worshipping our ideas of who He is. Does that make sense? Sure, we can read about Him in the gospels, but many people go from there to formulate more assuptions which aren't necessarily accurate. Some fail to see the Christ who turns to some who come to Heaven and say, "Lord, Lord." and He turns to them and says, "Depart from me. I never knew you." and are then cast into outer darkness. They had some sort of belief in Him, but they failed to worship Him in spirit and in truth, following some other man-made idea of who Christ was. They never understood and and never united themselves to them, although it's clear they believed in Him and even called Him Lord, but did this save them?

John the Baptist said that Christ would baptize with the Holy Spirit and with fire, clearly establishing the truth that in Christ, baptism would go from being a simple baptism of repentance to a baptism in which the Holy Spirit would come upon a person. The scriptures that say "believe and be saved" don't tell the whole story. If you look at all of scripture together, you might say that belief saves because from belief comes obedience to Christ. He commanded His apostles to go and preach and baptize those who believe. Belief comes first, as the Holy Spirit bears witness within a persons heart that the gospel is true, then the persons become yoked to Christ in baptism. Through water baptism they enter the Kingdom of Heaven and the Holy Spirit cleanses them and makes His home in their heart. This, or the belief which begins the step toward this, can be seen as the beginning of an individuals salvation. If they hold fast to their salvation until then end, they'll be saved. They must run the race to win; fight the good fight of faith; live obediently in Christ, so they may not get to the end and find that they have become disqualified.

Jesus is the way, and the truth, and the life (John 14:6), the Holy Spirit is called the Spirit of Truth, and God is to be worshipped in truth (John 4:24), so from all of this we can see understanding the truth is essential. It doesn't matter what one group says compared to another, so it's shouldn't be us against them, it must be a joint search to understand God for Who He is, and an effort to weed out any false ideas passed down to us from misguided sources.

It's true that the soul is understood to be the seat of reason and thought, while the heart, or spirit, is the place where God makes His home within us. God wants to fully redeem man, not just his spirit, so we must struggle to call our full selves to submission to Christ, mind, body, and spirit--all of which make up one whole being. The heart is the starting point, but He seeks to restore our total being to the grace-filled state man existed within before death entered the world. When we die, our spirit unnaturally is severed from our flesh, but this was not God's intent, although by giving man free will He allowed for our current condition to exist. When Christ returns our spirit will be reunited to a physical glorified body, which will live without corruption for all ages.

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I think it's interesting that you tell me not to "misquote" scirpture...right after you tell me "belief" is not enough when discussing John 3:16. Jesus Himself said belief was enough in that very same scripture...repent string before it's too late.

Doing the "will of my Father" is a lifelong process which includes obedience and baptism, good works, etc...it's LIVING a Christian Life...

We are sinful and I'm sure you and basil are sinful as well...are you (string & basil) doing God's will when you are sinning? Of course not...I guess, according to your logic and interpretation of this scripture, that you won't be entering into the Kingdom...after all, you sinned by not doing His will....

No ma'am...We all rely on Grace (and His mercy) to abound in those instance where we fail and sin...or NOT do God's Will....

It's impossible to live a perfect life (even your Saints were sinful), we are ALL sinful creatures who at times...do NOT do the Will of the Father...if so, according to your logic and interpretation of the scripture, none of us will enter the Kingdom.

Next,

"Baptism of the Holy Spirit" is indeed the receiving of the Holy Spirit and it is received upon asking and receiving Jesus as your personal savior...quite different than baptism in water which is symbolic of the act of renewing oneself in Christ.


Thanks basil for the spirit/soul agreement....redheads are THICK sometimes....

Right...I don't think you have to be baptised to receive the Holy Spirit. I think it's a personal decision that each person has to make on their own, pray about and do what they're personally convicted to do. I don't believe you have to be baptised to be saved or to enter God's Kingdom.

That said, I was baptised when I was a baby (now, I choose to say "dedicated" because I don't think baby baptisms mean much of anything) and never ever had the desire to be baptised by immersion. Until now. And it's been weighing heavily on my heart, so I prayed about it and have signed up to be baptised next month.....even tho I'm terrified of going under water, not to mention in the Gulf (which is where my church does it). But I feel the need and calling to do it, so I'm not going to ignore it, you know?

So, yeah, baptism is nice and it's a great way to publicly declare your devotion to and love for God. But it's not the only way. And it's definitely not a guarantee of a free pass into Heaven.

Wow! Way to go, Squat! :booyah:

Exactly what I was about to say after reading this thread. :thumbsup:

Baptism is simply an outward symbol that you have already received the Holy Spirit.

I believe that John was speaking of something different than water baptism when he said this. It is my opinion that what he (John) meant was that he baptized with water (symbolic cleansing of the body) and that Christ would baptize with the Spirit. When the Holy Spirit came at Pentacost the believers received tongues of fire over their heads. The Spirit "washed" over them. It is not any water baptism that makes a difference (that is all symbolic), it is the "washing over us" by the Spirit, upon belief, that grants enternal life in Christ. That is why a believer (water baptized or not) will enter Heaven.

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watch out for gators....

:thumbsup:

Congrats Deb :)

I think baptism is jsut het outward sign or ritual to show that you are willing to save yourself by accepting Christ...

I think there is a little bit of God in everything around us, Every creator leaves a little of himself behind.

I believe that we have small piece of the spirit of Christ and that is what makes us strive to overcome the wickedness of the flesh.....


But then again that's just me.....

'Gators don't swim in the Gulf silly boy....... :smack:

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HEY...I WATCH ANIMAL PLANET....

salt water crocs AND gators....

Yeah, saltwater crocs and gators.....that doesn't mean they're cavorting around in the Gulf of Mexico!! :rollseyes: They're in the Everglades....and I'll give you the ChaCha shirt off my back if you hike through THERE!! :nod:

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gators don't scare me...

It's all those stinkin' snakes you got over there...

water moccasins/cottonmouths, rattlers, copperheads....SHEESH, what a nightmare.

Ty almost stepped on a water moccasin a couple weeks ago when he was fishing....talk about doing some high-steppin'!!! :happy:

If that's were the scriptures stopped on this subject, you'd be right. I believed that for many years, but what about this verse?:

"He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned." Mark 16:16

There are many places in the scriptures where Christ commands us to be water baptized, which may also publically demonstrate our commitment, but it isn't an empty ritual (Christ wasn't big on those). Read this:

"Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." Acts 2:38

And

"'Then Paul said, “John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.' When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied."

As part of this act, God uses the waters of baptism to cleanse us of sin and for His Holy Spirit to enter into us. Despite exceptions, this is the means God uses to unite us to His Kingdom, but this doesn't guarantee salvation, just a start. It's like the gun firing at the beginning of a race, but unless you run to win, you can still lose.

We run to win, and trust in God's mercy to blot out our sins where we fall short. If we take His mercy for granted and sit back and expect Him to save us without cooperating with Him, we will perish. All who are saved are saved by grace alone, because no works can justify man, but we must act in obedience to Him to be saved. We must "fight the good fight of faith," "run to win," etc.

"Then I remembered the word of the Lord, how He said, ‘John indeed baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’" Acts 11:16

After Christ came into His Kingdom and sent the Holy Spirit, His baptism became a baptism which imparts the Holy Spirit to us. The Holy Spirit is everywhere present and fills all things, but must be invited into our hearts, because God respects the free will of mankind.

One issue dividing us on this is the scholastic view of God prevelent in the western world. God is thought about, understood intellectually, and by many salvation itself is an intellectual acceptance of belief in Christ. I just want to offer the idea that maybe being yoked to Christ is more than an intellectual decision we make. God may actually work through tangible things to unite us to Him, like baptism, like the gifts of wine and bread offered in communion, marriage, etc. Believing may be the catalyst which lead to us participating in these things, but it's participation in these things which actually translates us from the kingdom of darkness to Light. This is why Christ said to be baptised. Not as an empty thing done for show, but to actually be united back to God. This is 100% scriptural, and was taught by all Christians up until well after the Reformation, when scholasticism began to have a horrific effect on western Christianity. God is to be experienced to be understood more deeply, rather than contemplated alone. In other words, it's in the doing, or participating in the faith, that we begin to understand to a greater degree. It takes the belief in God from our soul to our heart, where we gain spiritual understanding, not just intellectual.

:hide:

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base....in all those scriptures "water" baptism isn't mentioned...

The Bible also speaks of Baptism with fire....How can we presume water baptism was meant?

If we had a checklist of things that had to be done to be saved, then what's the point of God's GIFT of salvation?



Also, let's examine "Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit"....what does that mean? I believe it is rejection of God's gift, a non or un-belief of God or Jesus'es Divine purpose...


Likewise, can you have an un-babtism? Of course not, but you can denounce your belief (Blasphemy) in God and lose your salvation...so wouldn't it make sense then that God's absolute, only requirment is belief to begin with? (Of course I'm talking Christian servent type belief)...

Now I'm not knocking water baptism...I believe it is commanded and part of the Christian Walk...but IMHO, us being part of our own means of salvation by fulfilling certain ritual requirements is slapping God's power and divinity in the face...basically saying "God can't save me until I X,Y, or Z"....

Kinda what I was thinking..........

I just found this etymology of the word baptism online. Baptism was always understood to refer to being dipped in water until very recently in some Christian sects. The writers of the N.T. took it for granted that their audience knew what they were talking about. When they talk about being baptised in "fire," they were making reference to the fact that the Holy Spirit of God was now manifested to the new believer in the baptismal service. God is described as an "All-Consuming Fire." Like the burning bush of old, our hearts are set ablaze with the love of God.

Wow! I've been gone and busy for a bit and this thread has gone far.

One question I'd like to pose to those of you who believe that baptism is merely "symbolic"...Can you point me to:
A-where its is described as merly symbolic in the Holy scriptures and B-evidence that the first Christians believed and passed this down.

Since the first Christians did not believe this and even those during the Reformation did not believe it you will be unable to find any evidence that it is merely symbolic up until the last couple hundred years or so. In the history of Christianity this is a relatively new idea, therefore not taught or held as truth by the apostles.

When new ideas pop up that were not taught by those taught directly instructed by Christ himself, we must seriously take a closer look at them and their origins. If Christ did not teach it, then it is false. Now many of today's modern leaders will interpret the scriptures to say that those things were indeed taught, but they ignore many scriptures that contradict their teachings. What we need to do is go back to the early teachings, rather than relying on our contemporaries(that is modern teachers, who may indeed be a thousand miles removed from the original teachings) to interpret for us.

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good point...

I'll leave the rebuttal to someone smarter than me....

I have argued points on baptism with others for a long time. I have come to believe it is a pointless argument. Using a hypothetical example, suppose one dies before water baptism, but they have become a believer. Is that person condemned?

Water baptism is commanded. It is part of the Christian Life. It is a time of celebration in which other believers join the party in Heaven at the arrival of a new brother or sister.

I was baptized at a time when I was still trying to figure out what my life was all about. I wasn't really close to the Lord when I was baptized, but I believed He was the Savior. It was 7 years later when I actually devoted my life to Him and felt, for the first time, the presence of the Holy Spirit. I was last baptized in water in 1995. I felt the baptism of fire in 2002.

Is one necessary for the other? Do they happen at the same time? I don't think so. These things can happen in any order.

God is not concerned with our rituals. He wants us to live the life.

He desires mercy, not sacrifice. He wants our lives, not our rituals. He wants us to demonstrate our love for Him through our everyday lives.

How do we do that? We give to the poor. We discuss Him at work without fear or embarrassment. We turn the other cheek when we are wronged. We wish no ill on anybody - regardless of their station in life.

This last is the hard one because it includes people like that Phelps guy from Kansas. It includes Mahmoud Ahmadinejad - the President of Iran. At the time of Christ, it included Caesar and Herod. What did Paul and Silas do in prison? They sang praises to God. What did Christ say when He was on the cross? "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing." (Luke 23:34, NIV)

What are the two great commands?

"There is no commandment greater than these." "There is no commandment greater than these." Think on this.

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good enough for me Clay....


btw string...


Do the Holy Scriptures mention anything about Lent, Praying to Saints or transubstantiation? or are these simply "church traditions"?

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sig worthy....

sig worthy....

One issue per post.

Lent--Prescribed fasts are in fact mentioned in the scriptures--It was part of the worship that the apostles continued to participate in. Since Great Lent is the fast prior to Pascha(Easter for you westerners) it developed long after the established Jewish fasts in the Christian Church and evidence of its origins date back to the first century.

Note here is mentioned "the fast" not just any fast, but the fast and readers of the time period would have recognized which fast is referred to here because of the reference to the weather and sailing conditions. Now what does the weather have to do with "the fast"? Most prescribed fasts are done at the same time every year. This one in particular ended during a time of the year when the seas were rough because of the weather. That is why "sailing was now dangerous because the Fast was already over".

And as for Christ telling his followers to fast, He says this:

The apostles followed Christ's exmple of fasting and taught about fasting in the scriptures:

and so on...


Gotta go start Cliff's dinner Will return and post more when I can..

Is acknowledging what Christ and His apostles instructed us to do somehow incompatible with these greatest commandments?

Anyone can be uncharitable in their presentation, but instructing the Body of Christ in all matters concerning the faith was very important to Christ and His disciples. Why did Paul and others write the epistles to address areas of pastoral concern? Why did Christ hang around before the ascension teaching His disciples "all things concerning the faith?" Truth matters, but we shouldn't argue it to prove ourselves right, or boast about being right, because we are all recipients of truth, not orignators of it. The Holy Spirit illumines our hearts so that we can declare that Christ is the Son of God--faith is a gift.

Baptism as it's described in scripture is a necessary action for us to take, but we don't place limits on God, because exceptions clearly have occured, like the thief on the cross. Should we discount Christ's teaching on baptism, just because there are exceptions made? Should we make ourselves the exception?

No where in scriptures is baptism described as an empty ritual (one done for show only)--the only way to see it as such is to redefine what was said in light of modern teachings that have no historic root, or straight-forward support in scripture. It doesn't say it's merely a public declaration of faith, although if you stand in a line to be baptized that element exists also.

Dinner is ready.

I never said baptism is a ritual, only that some focus more on the rituals and their values rather than the simple commands that we love God first, others second and ourselves last.

We are commanded to be baptized just as we are commanded to keep the Sabbath - yet I see very few taking that commandment seriously.

I guess that what I'm saying is, in a nutshell, let's stop worrying about the division and the "My way is better than your way" mentality.

[Snip long monologue regarding division]

Yes, we are commanded to be baptized. Whether or not it is required for salvation is a point that will be argued until He comes back. But if you do not follow His commands, are you truly saved? That I believe, is the question that needs to be analyzed.

There is no "my way is better than your way" mentality.... There is only a goal of coming to the truth and putting aside old beliefs in false teachings. Now are we going to really look into these things or just skim over them, accept the false doctrine with the true, pretend that actually knowing the real truth doesn't matter and put on our hemp sandals, hug each other and pretend that we are in unity with Christ?
I can't do that. That would be a lie.
I think we need to face up to reality, look deeper than our pastor's sermons on the subjects, deeper than the books at the local Christian book store and find the truth. These things are more important than many modern Christians realize.

They forget that God wanted us to be united in the truth and not divided by conflicting beliefs.

The apostles taught the people directly what the truth was and commanded them to preserve it and hold fast to those teachings. The scriptures say that it is belief in the truth that saves you. In this day there is a lot of variation as people have left those teachings and tried to figure it out and have reinterpreted it on their own. That is why we are in such a state of chaos and disunity.

This is a good point too. Many people truly believe that they are doing the will of God and following HIs commandments, but are in fact in a state of deception, believing false doctrines, and teaching false things. Jesus himself warned us of this happening and tells us that those people will be turned away. Sincerity in one's belief is not enough. What matters is whether that belief is in the truth or in lies.

I believe there was. And, I'm not pointing fingers, because it would be the pot calling the kettle black. All of us, on both sides have been doing some of this throughout these discussions.

I can accept that. This comment was not directed at anyone in particular, rather at the topic as a whole.

I've seen both sides of the issue. I've seen division because one person reads a verse that says baptism is required for salvation (Acts 2:38, for example) and another reads that faith alone is required for salvation (John 3:16, for example). I have no idea from whence came the idea that baptism is optional - I refuse to answer that because it's a fallacious argument.

Many people listen to the preachers on TV or radio, maybe even attend their services. They get to feeling good about what the preacher says about prosperity and they leave. Somehow people miss the important stuff in the Gospels:

• Love God.
  
• Love other people.
  
• Love yourself.
  
• Christians will suffer.
  
• Obey the commands.
  

I agree 100%. I believe the only firm answer to all of our questions lies in the Word of God. It's not in the books; it's not in our pastor's sermons. But people need to actually read those words in context. I'm reminded of the allegory where a suicidal man turns to the Bible trying to find hope. At random, he opens to a page and puts his finger on the verse that says "Judas hanged himself." Not finding a satisfactory answer, he opens to another random page and puts his finger on the verse that says, "Go and do likewise."

America - indeed, much of the Western World - is lazy. We want factoids. We want sound bites. We don't want to study or work for anything. Sermons, songs and daily devotionals are designed to make us hungry for more. They're designed to tempt us into reading God's Word so that we may understand it.
[quote] The apostles taught the people directly what the truth was and commanded them to preserve it and hold fast to those teachings. The scriptures say that it is belief in the truth that saves you. In this day there is a lot of variation as people have left those teachings and tried to figure it out and have reinterpreted it on their own. That is why we are in such a state of chaos and disunity.[quote]
Again, I agree 100%. But now that we are faced with such a state of chaos and disunity, how can we trust any one organization without turning to the Word for ourselves? How do I know that the leaders of any church, including my own, are teaching me correctly?

I'll give you an example. One of my spiritual mentors is a man named Edward Fudge. He is an acclaimed author and world-wide speaker, packing the house at Pepperdine, Abilene Christian and Harding, among others. God has blessed me with personally having Edward's ear. Edward wrote a book entitled "The Fire that Consumes" and co-authored a debate book entitled "Two Views of Hell". In both books, he contends that Hell is not eternal punishment, rather that human souls are consumed by the fires. As much as I admire Edward, I am not certain that this teaching is correct simply because it flies in the face of everything I've been taught all my life. At the same time, I do not know for certain that this view is incorrect, so I choose to remain silent and let the world think I'm a fool rather than open my mouth and remove all doubt.

About end times, no human can know with certainty. That is a mystery. All we know for certain is what Christ promised us. Seek first the Kingdom of God and His righteousness - the reward is eternal life. Otherwise, we will suffer the second death. We know He will return. We know He will emerge victorious over the forces of evil and death itself. Aside from that, we know nothing.

Back on track
In short, String and Basil, I am not arguing with you. I also do not agree with you, Squat. I pray for guidance from the Holy Spirit before I write these words, and I believe He guides me. He has yet to tell me, however, that I am free to judge others in their sin. Rather I am to demonstrate to them the Love of Christ first, and introduce them to Him second. It is not up to me to point out the erroneous ways of a non-believer, and only in love can I point out the erroneous ways of a believer.

Truth is essential and the only means for unity. We cannot have one mind and speak with one voice unless we submit ourselves to the truth God has revealed.

Scholasticism in the west reduced the gospel to a set of beliefs, but it's the actions Christ took to free us from the bondage of death, and our actions to embrace salvation freely given by God's grace that save us, not believing the right things. Believing the truth is important, because it leads us to the right actions to take. If we accuratly understand our condition and what Christ did for us, the steps toward recovery from sin and death become illumined to us. If we misunderstand these things, then we often waste time in futile efforts or do nothing.

AMEN, Brother!

And that's why arguing over petty details serves no purpose except one-upmanship!

Sola Scriptura can stand only if the one reading and interpreting it for himself is infalllible and is there is no need for other commentaries, devotionals, explainations, sermons, etc. Also, the Word of God itself tells us that there is more to the faith to be held to than what is contained within:

Now everyone here has their very own copies of those letters that were cannonized as scripture, but do you have the teachings they taught by word of mouth??? Go back and look up the writings of the apostles that weren't cannonized as scripture-Yeah, they didn't put their pens down after the letters and gospels!-(One source is the Didache:The teaching of the Twelve Apostles) , the writings of those directly taught by the apostles, and so on. If you really want to get back to the faith of the apostles, then go back to the writings of the early centuries. Seek and ye shall find. :D

Even if we read them in context, to assume that we know what we are reading on our own is foolish. We are human. We misunderstand and misinterpret. We cannot understand it on our own without the guidance of someone who knows better than we. And to assume that the Holy Spirit will guide us into perfect understnding individually doesn't hold water either, because if that were true, then ther would be no divisions of faith, as every person who reads the scriptures would be lead to the same exact belief. There would be no AG/Church of Christ/Baptist/Presbyterian/Lutheran etc.. Because every one would have been lead by the Holy Spirit to the exact same interpretation of scriptures. Your brethren, who are as committed and sincere as you have been "led" to a conflicting belief and interpretation. Our "interpretations" are merely just that--our interpretations

Rememer the Ethiopian who was reading the scriptures and did not understand what he was reading? Was it because the Holy Spirit was not with him? No--It was because he knew that if he were to rely on his own interpretations and assume they came from the Holy Spirit, he would be misled.

You don't trust any organizations. You go back in time as read the early Church fathers for yourself. What were they doing in the first, second, third fourth centuries after Christ? What were the beliefs of the Christian faith at the very eginning? How were they worshipping and does what I believe, how I worship, how I understand the scriptures line up with the very earliest teachings of Christianity?

Also, I'd ask you how do you trust yourself with turning to the Word, when we know we are bound to misunderstand and misinterpret if left to our own abilities???
Turning to the Word of God on our own had led us into thousands of directions and created all the divisions we live amongst today. The Ethiopian knew better than to trust himself, although he was clearly "turning to the Word".

Again, go back to the writings of the apostles, those who came directly after the apostles, the earliest church fathers--If what they are teaching and what we are believing doesn't line up--Then perhaps we need to take the step of throwing out all that we've been taught and believed our whole lives and realize that we've been in the wrong. Yeah, that would mean turning one's whole world upside down and coming to a major crisis of faith, but if it leads you to the truth--what can be more worth it?

And so believes every other sincere, God-loving, honestly devoted person out there who holds tight to ideas and interpretations that conflict with yours.

The Spirit of Truth cannot lead each of us into opposing directions.

I would say it is not safe to be so confident that the Holy Spirit is leading one into the proper interpretation and belief, and that one's brethren who believe they also are being led by the Holy Spirit, are wrong. That's a dangerous line to be walking on...

I just read a book recently-- Thirsting For God in a Land of Shallow Wells--follow the link to Amazon. It addresses all the things we have addressed in the last few posts in a way that makes everything clear. I am not very good at trying to get my thoughts across but the author of this book apparently has that gift. The bookis only $10 and it is an enlightening read. Makes you think and then rethink. And even if you are not convinced after reading, at least you will have a lot to think about and a better understanding of your own faith. Its a quick read--less than 200 pages. I urge you to consider reading it, since I fail miserably at making good, clear, understandable points. :P

Sigh...

I have been stayin out of this discussion because... well honestly I haven't a clue what the heck anyone is *tryin* to talk bout. This happens far to often, folks will try an talk botu one specific thin an all of a sudden everthin else gits dragged into it until folks (like me) are annoyed that it's the same attitude of so an so is right an so an so is wrong an the best argument is because 'it's been handed down unaltered etc'

I can completely see what Clay is sayin here an I agree mostly wit em. An even though I have read each of the posts in here... honestly people.. what are we talkin bout? I had *thought* the original topic of this split thread was when do we "actually" recieve the Holy Spirit. But seems thins have gone a long ways off an back round on this issue agin.

Personally, I don't think it's an easy thin to keep from blurrin the lines, for example is baptism required, for salvation, jes ritual bla bla bla, when talkin bout this, but for the record, could folks say when they believe we actually recieve the Holy Spirit, and, is this different from bein baptised wit fire an baptised wit water etc. I'd be happy to discuss the differenece of baptisin in fire an water in another thread, but if I understand these thins in this thread correctly.

Squat believes we recieve the Holy Spirit when we accept Christ

String an Basil believe it's when one is water baptised?

And off the top of my head I don't think anyone else has taken a stance specifically?

I'd kinda like to understand exactly what we are talkin bout in here actually, because to often it jes comes back to lil jabs by folks an I use this jes as an example "protestant beliefs" etc. We all know all of us here aside from String an Basil are labeled as Protestants. But those lil jabs git old an don't do anythin to further any kind of a discussion, cause it throws folks into a tissy an then it jes degrades from there.

The worst thin I think we could do though is keep startin topics er threads for each lil thin someone wants to talk bout in here, seems to me we at FHL can only handle one theology thread at a time, one a week er so hehe, so if folks could redirect this thread for it's intended purpose I'd be grateful.

I seen this an don't have time to read all of it right now, but this part that I got to is exactly what I mean when I say we start degradin into disaster very quickly. I realize String that you won't agree wit this an of course it's another argumenet er debate er whatever waitin to happen. buuuuuttttt.... honestly, if you could look at it from my perspective..

We have God the father, Jesus the son, the Holy Spirit, the 12 disicples..... buuuutttt... then the orthodox faith, an the catholic faith an of course the protestant faith... all have these "other" *truth* teachers.... can you tell me why I should put any stock in some other guy that may er may not have actually been taught directly side by side one of the disciples? I mean it'd be like me sayin to you for example Joel Osteen.. I know how loved he is round here, but sayin you should put stock in everthin he says because his blood line could be traced back unaltered to .. I donno King David er sumthin. Doesn't matter if it were true er not honestly, because the words he speaks may er may not be in line wit Christ. Which I believe becomes the biggest of the issues all of us have wit each other. These guys were guys, men, sinful an wicked like the rest of us, an there is nuthin that would say they were smarter, holier, er anythin else more so then what Christ Himself taught.

That's why the written words of Christ an the disciples are where the foundation of the teachins should come from, all the books an tapes an folks teachins an stuff are all good, I won't say they are not, but they are jes gravey on top of the meat, none an I mean none of us should place anymore stock in what any of these guys say then what Christ said.

I truly don't want to git into a big debate, an feel free to split er delete my posts as needed er the like, but I try.. I really do try an keep an open mind to other faiths, not that I have a problem wit my faith, but I truly wish to understand, for example like catholics bowin down an prayin to frickin stone statues an the like an then give it all these fancy names, I have a desire to understand why they believe the way they do, an I truly worry bout catholics for example, jes because soooo very many of em have never actually opened the bible an read for themsef's. Anywas I know I've gone way off, but I'd like to share ideas an not havta defend them to other believers all the time.

The gospel is not a petty detail. How we enter the Kingdom of Heaven is hardly a marginal issue that we don't need to understand. It's not a matter of being dogmatic, it's about understanding and perpetuating the truth in the face of new ideas that oppose Christ's teachings.