From these quotes we can see the first Christians continued to worship and pray in the temples of the Jews, supplementing that with celebrating communion in the homes of believers. Later they built their own temples, but we know they continued worshipping God in a structured manner, just like the Jews, who's worship wasn't bad, it just needed to be perfected to center on Christ as our passover Lamb. They continued observing hours of prayer, use of candles, incense, singing prayers, rather than speaking them, etc. Why?

In John's vision of heaven in Revelation, we can see that a temple and altar are present and incense is even offered, just as it had been in the Jewish temples. This heavenly worship is the prototype which Christian worship replicates for us here. Christ acts as our High Priest, at His Heavenly altar, while the Holy Spirit performs the miracle of making our offering of bread and wine into the blood and body of Christ on the altar of each temple here.

The followers of Christ faithfully celebrated communion. This along with prayers offered in the temple is how they worshipped God. Later both parts were combined together when Christians began worshipping separate from the Jews and building their own temples. The first half of the service is what we call the liturgy (meaning the work of the people) of the word, which is full of prayers leading up to the reading from an epistle and then a gospel. The second half if the liturgy of the eucharist (meaning great thanksgiving) which is full or prayers leading up to the faithful communing.

It is clear from these quotes that the Christians continued centering their worship on partaking of the blood and body of Christ. It was serious business, as you can read in the last quote. Even participating without proper preparation could do spiritual harm to oneself, which is why the Church never had "open" communion. To commune one must be adequately prepared.

This is from the Inerrant Word of God. It may be something you've not spent much time pondering, but it's in the Word. It was seen as the core of Christian worship from the beginning, not springing from some manmade ideas creeping in, it is clearly supported by the Bible.

Are you saying this is the ONLY way to worship God?

In Isaiah 29:13-14 (and later reiterated by Jesus in Matthew 15)

God doesn't just want us going through the motions in some prescribed order. He wants our hearts and minds freely giving to Him during worship (Colossians 3:16, 1 Corinthians 14:15). He doesn't care about fancy ritualism:

Amos 5:21-22 is also along the same lines.

I'm not saying the way you worship is wrong. But I know that the way I worship and the way the church I go to worships IS supported by God's Word.

We sing and we dance and we use instraments and clap and shout (Exodus 15:1, 20; 2 Samuel 6:5; 1 Chronicles 15:16, 22, 28, 29; 25:1, 3, 6, 7; 2 Chronicles 5:12-14; 29:25-30; Ezra 3:10-11; Psalms 33:3; 35:27; 47:1; 98:4; 150:5; Isaiah 38:20; Ephesians 5:19; Luke 17:15)

We worship with fellow believers and alone (Psalms 22:22; 107:32; 149:1; 2 Samuel 12:20; Job 1:20)

We don't worry about whether we've assume the "correct" worship "position". We sit, stand, kneel, raise hands, and even laying on the ground! ( Psalms 95:6; Revelation 7:9, 10; Matthew 2:11; 28:9; Nehemiah 8:6)

We also take communion.

We pray (James 5:14-16; Acts 12:5)

We have a message, teaching, etc. (Acts 2:42; Acts 20:7)

I think we need to be careful not to get too caught up in the keeping of rules and regulations, rather than drawing people closer to God. It can become a stumblingblock if it leads to an attitude of self-righteousness and neglecting of the higher law of love. (Matthew 12:1-15; 23:23)

That's my question too, Sarah.

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Question?

I don't see a question?


btw...I think God likes it all.

Great post Sarah!

Personally, I think God is pleased to see us worshipping Him in all of our different ways. Singing, instruments, no instruments, kneeling, standing, sitting.....whatever.

This past Sunday our church arranged the sanctuary with round tables and everyone sat at different tables to worship and hear the sermon. It was way cool! :thumbsup:

Open thine eyes - punk! B)

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Choose thy words carefully O' ye of little strength...

For I shall smite thee with malicious intent and cast upon ye thy wrath.

Okay, GoofySquat.......

:cheeky:

Thank you!!!

Matthew 6:7

Why is it important to worship just like the Apostles? Last time I checked - they were just men. And - if I'm not mistaken - we aren't to worship them. They didn't have electric guitars, drum sets, lighting equipment, video equipment, or state of the art audio equipment. They didn't use little waffers for communion - or grape juice. For some reason i don't think God cares about any of that stuff.....

:rolf: For a minute, I read it as "WAFFLES"........

Well, they didn't use those either!! :bonk:

Oh yea, but think how much TASTIER communion would be.........waffles and grape juice.......... :yum:

It's important to at least consider that they may have known a little bit more about our life in Christ and true worship than we do today, if we, or our group, is coming up with new things that aren't supported by scripture or all records of how early Christians worshipped. Jesus taught them directly and selected these men to receive the faith to pass down to us, so we should follow the traditions they established and exhorted us to follow.

These verses directly indicate that the witness of the Apostles was authoritative. People in the various churches weren't left to follow their own traditions, like many groups do today, but instead they were exhorted in the word of God to maintain the traditions being passed down by the Apostles, which weren't manmade, but those given to them by Christ. What are traditions? Just the pattern of how we do things. Non-denominational groups, and all established groups, have their patterns of worship. Question is, who's pattern is it, Christ's, or something devised from human planning?

We honor the Apostles, as Christ did, but no one is worshipping any man, that's kinda an unsubstantiated attack. I'm not offended, but saying we worship the apostles just because we're interested in holding fast to the traditions they preserved and passed on is wrong.

This is a whole other topic, but we don't either. Using those little unleavened crackers was a change initiated by the Roman Catholic Church over 1200 centuries after Christ. Each week, or each service held, someone in the parish bakes five loaves of leavened bread, which are then offered back to God and used to become the Body of Christ.

It's one thing to know - understand- and learn tradition. It's another to believe in them - that they are what saves you or that they have some deeper meaning beyond just that - a tradition.
To say that one should worship in a specific way is very limiting to the power of Christ & limiting those who can be "saved". Salvation isn't for a limited group of people. There are groups of people in this world that can't afford bread or grape juice or even wine - are they not saved because they don't take communion in the way the Apostles did?

I know what you're saying, but our duty is to be obedient to Christ, rather than doing things our own way when we should submit to His. In the rare instance that someone cannot be obedient due to their circumstances, we know He is merciful and will judge them accordingly. That's just the nature of our God. For example the thief on the cross next to him, couldn't be baptized in the Kingdom, but he was still saved. Does this mean baptism isn't necessary? No, it just further shows that God is merciful and His love judges men fairly, taking into account such rare situations.

Do we therefore tempt God, by doing things our own way, believing he'll save us, despite our rebellion against His ways? No. We should still submit to him, because a proud heart God despises. If we are too self-willed to submit to Him, we have no part in Him.

Following the pattern of worship from the OT, the perfected worship established in the New Testament mystically takes us beyond the earthly realm into Heavenly Worship. These are excerpts from here:

Emphasis mine.

This is why following the heavenly pattern is necessary. We aren't doing our own separate thing to please God, we're joining our voices with the angels, prophets, saints who've gone before us, in worship of the Holy Trinity.

Do you worship ONLY in Hebrew? Cleary that is the way that the original apostles would have done it.

:agree:

The language doesn't matter. Worshipping within the Body of Christ in the pattern of heavenly worship can be done in any language . . . until a few years back the Roman Catholic faith refused to do their service it in vernacular languages, but that is just another part of their strange list of errors. The Church has always translated it's worship and the Bible into the languages of the people being served.

Ya know dude... you couldn't be any more wrong if you wanted to be... I mean that jes like it sounded. First you make these claims of FACTS that it MUST be done such an such way, you ignore any of the research given to you in this thread an by pass it all togeather an THEN you come up wit even more stupidity an say this???

"The language doesn't matter. "

Now jes who are you to say this? How can all these other thins be facts an then when someone says sumthin like this you *claim* it doesn't matter... now jes how can it not matter?

You drive me nuts wit this stuff, you make up beliefs that have no bearin anywhere, then deny everthin that actually has scripture along wit it, I'm really dumbfounded by this stuff.

Not only that... if memory serves, it seems the apostles spoke largely in greek... which is obviously different the then OT that spoke/worshipped in hebrew... it amazes me the thins you wish to stand on as fact wit no backin while you ignore what other folks have proposed an then you calmly deny literal questions of factual events as "it doesn't matter"

:screwy:

Salvation isn't limited? :blink: So, you guys are taking sides against Christ, Who stated:

We are to worship in spirit and in truth:

The way we worship matters, not because it's a matter of fulfilling some law to be saved, it's a matter or joining in the eternal worship of God, versus just doing what makes us feel good. There can be a difference between "feeling" like we're worshipping God and really participating in worship. Feelings can lead us astray, but participating in true worship can lead to deep joy, but doesn't always lead to that feeling. Feelings aren't something we can trust. If any of you are ever moody, you should know that sometimes we feel different ways for almost no clear reason. Do you really want that to be your measuring stick of true worship?

:blink:

Lewis, why would the language we pray in matter? Why would the language we worship in matter? Do any of you pray in Hebrew and Greek?

I'm not sure what this diversion is all about, but it's really a non-issue. This isn't my opinion. It's just historic fact that the Church has always worshipped in the language of the people that came into Christ. Who would want to pray prayers in a different language they don't even understand very well?

I've quoted myself again incase Basil missed my post since he's commented on everyone elses except mine. Any comments Basil?

I brought this up back in Feb and believe that Salvation is made for everyone HOWEVER not everyone will believe/accept.

That's the whole point jack. Where is it that says we must worship in tradition vs lingo? You claim one is fact an the other is not. You cain't make the lingo a non-issue if not also in the way we worship.

For example, have you ever seen a orthodox er catholic er any of the protestant folks who look like they've been suckin on sour lemons dance before the Lord jes as David did? Er how bout the entire book of Psalms. Were all of these spoken/written down in such a way as the whole solemn an funky music that they tend to use, I actually cain't think of what it's called.

My heart rejoices in Christ, an I don't think He cares how we praise Him. He said if we didn't do it the rocks an trees would CRY out. To cry out is to make a loud an noise. An God said it is good for us to make a loud an joyful noise unto the Lord.

In my opinion this entire thread is a non-issue. It would appear to me an I of course may be wrong here, but it's the same o'l tired ordeal. The orthodox have it right, thier form of worship is the only acceptable kind an anythin else is sinful. It's a crock in my opinion. In my opinion an belief, the orthodox do NOT have everthin right, they do not know it all an if they did they'd boast... which is sinful in an of itsef. Certainly we don't have it right an when we divide over sumthin as silly as how we praise God it's jes insane. This is infact a non-issue jes as it is wit the lingo. But you can not say as fact that one is a fact wit no real backin, an the other is not. The bible is full of scripture bout worship, an none of em says you must do it such an such way..... you can call it whatever you want, but this whole 'honorin' the saints, er as the catholics call it, veneratin the saints is wrong an sinful. For it gives these people, fleash an blood people to high a standin. In the end, we have all sinned an fallen short of the glory of God. Period, that includes Mary, all the disciples, all the prophets, everone that's ever been on this earth save one. Jesus.

I guess maybe we should clarify that what we're really talking about is the way we worship when we gather together corperately. Certainly we can sing hymns and spiritual songs throughout of day with one another, which is worship, but when God's people gather to worship together, there has always been order and a pattern that was followed.

All of our churches follow some normal pattern, whether it's heavenly or manmade. Even the charismatic services I attended were very predictable, even in their "spontaneous" moments. All the major parts of the service were hit everytime, normally in the exact same order: 1. Worship, starting out with faster songs, then normally ending up with slower ones, for emotional effect. 2. Mini-sermonette about giving, strategically placed right before the offering was taken. 3. Offering, occuring simultaneously with a praise reports of how blessed someone was after they gave. 4. Sermon. 5. Altar call. 6. Dismissal.

With any form of worship, a person could go through the motions, giving lip service without the worship springing from their hearts. Of course He doesn't want empty ritual, He wants us to be engaged in heavenly worship with our hearts and minds.

"Assume the position!" :dunno: We postion our hearts in adoration of Christ. We bow down before Him.

The scriptures you site refer mostly to personal worship, but corporate worship has always been organized, even by you in non-denominational groups. The only difference is that we are defending that right-worship aligns us up with what is continuously going on in heaven. Read the passage from Isaiah where he observed the worship taking place in heaven. Read all the references to worship that were revealed to John and recorded in Revelation. It's all structured, but that doesn't make it dead. In fact, since it's right worship, it's more alive and real than anything man can dream up.

Oh. We totally agree on that then. :thumbsup:

Obeying Christ, rather than proudly etching out our own path to salvation, is essential to be saved. So many may want to do things their own way, but will perish, finding out that Christ is the door and no one will come into the Kingdom of Heaven, except through Him.

Believe, be baptized into His death and then raised into the eternal kingdom of God. This is where we are saved, but then we must remain faithful to that calling. We must continue to submit to Christ until the day we fall asleep and awake in eternity. His yoke is easy, His burden light, so it's not like being saved involves solving a complex mathmatical algorithm, but it does require our submission, or continued cooperation with God.

and the circle continues - can you please just come out and say what you are trying to say? Please?

How do YOU THINK we should worship? simple question - should be a simple answer...i hope..

I don't feel like I'm going in circles, sorry. Our worship should be like what was revealed to Isaiah. We should join our voices with the eternal worship of God being carried out by hosts of angels and those alive in Christ. The same type of worship was revealed to St. John and recorded in the book of Revelation, and is described in Hebrews.

Heavenly Worship- this is a brief, but very good article explaining the nature of God's Kingdom, and how we can actually participate in that Kingdom in our worship. Jesus said the Kingdom of God is at hand, not that it's an eventual place we will experience. We can enter that Kingdom through baptism, and participate in it through our life in Christ, although to a limited degree. When we are resurrected, if we are saved, we will then be fully joined to His Kingdom.

The full text is found at the link. Some may think following a pattern or worship, like the service we participate in each Sunday is rigid and boring, but it's really amazing how moving it can be--and I've experienced a lot of emotionally charged services in my days. When we follow a man-made pattern, it seems to remain limited to the earthly realm, but when we submit to heavenly worship, we move beyond ourselves, sacrificing our will and desire to worship the way we want, and experience heaven. No big suprise, God's pattern is what we need, even if it doesn't seem so at first glance. We need to learn to submit to Him and yield ourselves to right-worship, rather than doing it our own way, or the way our group chooses to orchestrate worship.

I read that this verse is speaking about worship through the eyes of Isaiah, who was lifted up to worship in Heaven, or the "heavenly dimension."

But where does it say that everyone is supposed to worship in exactly the same way? :dunno:

I just don't see it. Where exactly in the Bible does it list the steps everyone needs to do in our worship service? Just because the Bible talks about worship services and how they were conducted in the past, I don't believe that it's telling us that we are required to worship that same way now.

This is a very good question. The truth is that, despite some allusions to worship, the New Testament does not give us any full text of a service or prayers, except the Lord's Prayer, used in worship. These things were taught directly to the church by direct contact, rather than in writing. The first service was said to have been put together by Saint James, the brother of our Lord. We have very early texts of this service, which makes it very possibly apostolic in origin.

It may be very different from the worship you're accustomed to, but it's very reasonable to conclude that the Christians continued in worship that was much like the Jews. Their worship corporately had always been liturgical in nature. Liturgy just means "the work of the people." It was comprised of sung (or chanted) prayers, petitions to God, etc. If you were to visit an Orthodox Jewish synagogue, you'd see the same pattern of worship used by them today. Then if you went down the street to your local Orthodox Chrsitian temple, you'd find striking similarities between the two. Both are patterned after the true worship of God, revealed in the visions mentioned above. Man-made worship, may induce positive emotions, and has some value, but participating in the eternal heavenly worship takes us beyond ourselves and this temporal world, uniting us to the eternal world in worship of God.

I wouldn't say other expressions of love and adoration of God aren't positive, but the center of worship has always been celebration of the "supper of the Lamb" where we partake of the blood and body of Christ.

Sooooo...is this a "salvation" issue? or no? If I don't worship in this way - am I sinning?

...

If we correctly understand salvation as a process of continued submission to God's will and healing power, then we can see how participating in worship helps restore us back into His image. In the fall the image of God in man was shattered, but, by God's grace through Christ, that shattered image can be restored, if we submit ourselves and all of our lives to Him. Prayer, the central part of heavenly worship, opens our hearts, allowing God inside to heal the parts of us that are damaged by sin. It's a powerful reality, which cannot be accomplished as effectively in worship that originates with men, as opposed to the true worship, which orginates in heaven with God.

Sometimes this worship can be highly emotional, sometimes all we can think about is our discomfort or other distractions, but when we make a concerted effort to engage in heavenly worship, we begin to be transformed, even if our flighty emotions don't fall in line with the reality of what's happening.

yah.. fine.. the answer to you GR is apperently...

"Goin to baffle you wit all my BS rather then answer the question"

From the git go though, you can see it is indeed a salvation issue an one that if not done precisely as the orthodox do it then it is a sin etc etc. By sayin, quote "If we correctly understand salvation as a process of" unquote, which simply means, yes we're wrong, it's that simple... tell me Basil... any reason you've not responded to Sarah yet? She's posted the same thin twice, second time in case you missed the first.... any reason?

:thumbsup: I'll just add that to the long list of reasons I'll burn in hell.

Tattoo's - check
Drink beer - check
Can't Stand George Bush - check
Listen to non-christian music - check
attend non-denominational church- check
worship incorrectly - check

:nono:

He did answer...