I was wit you through most of this an that was a nice surprise to me.. but ;e's look a a couple thins that you said. One, Mary was an eternal virgin but then you said "Scripture supports this, although it's not explicitly stated, and it can be confusing since some family relationships are called brothers, when they were actually cousins and perhaps Joseph's children with his previous wife." There is no scripture to back this up, nor is there scripture to say Joseph *had a previous* wife er that these were cousins etc. This is one of those insane NON-ISSUES for me. Does it at all matter wether er not Mary remained a virgin er not? As if there is sumthin wrong wit not bein a virgin... infact, I'm not a virgin... neither is anyone on this baord I would think... this is a stupid point of contention that doesn't matter. Personaly, Mary was a woman like any other, she bled once a month, she got crabby an slept, she most likely had sex wit er husband, she sinned an she was jes like any other woman ASIDE from... God chose er instead of anyone else to brin Christ into the world. while that is an honor there should be no praise of the woman for it.

There's a parallele I wanna draw here that you said. First you say scripture supports a claim you made when it clearly doesn't, then you claim that the end times is merely figurative where there is NO scripture to say that either. Infact, I believe you need to go back an re-read Revelations as you've some of the order messed up. Jes put the 1000 year regin on the back burner for the minute an explain away the scriptures in Revelations that discuss the tribulation saints, the rise of the anti-christ an the 7 years of tribulation. Many MANY other aspects of it as well. The order.... not accordin to me er my beliefs, but accordin to the word of God.

Jesus comes for the church ie. rapture
The anti-christ rises to power an after 3.5 years there will be literal peace in the world specifically the middle east. (it's of course a fake peace but people will think otherwise)
We'll come back wit Jesus after 7 years, (the third comin) There will be a battle the anti-christ an satan will be bound for 1000 years. After this they will be released for a season (now here's a key, you said "What sort of sick game would that be?" It's God's game, an I would be careful of how I said that. Many times through scripture God has done sumthin because it serves HIS purpose, doesn't make sense to us, but it does to HIM. For example, He had Daniel lay on his side in the dirt for so many days to relate the days of captivity etc etc of Isreal. It's in the book of Daniel have a look see.) This is where the nations will be tempted to war wit Israel agin, er armagedon, Jesus will step in, it will put an end to all of this, and THEN the great white throne judgement.

Now look, I don't pretend to understand all of the book of revelations, much of it is way over my head, but if you read jes the order of what's in the book you see it is most certainly NOT figurative in nature at all.

This is what concerns me so very greatly bout like your faith an that of the catholics, blindly you accept what is taught an have apperently never gone an looked it up yoursef. The bible does not support scripture er claims that Mary was an internal virgin, an it DOES support scripture of the 1000 year reighn on this earth an then this earth an the old heaven will pass away an God will make a new one. It's all there, you've jes got to read it is all.


One other lil thin that's not worth a debate over, but in relation to cration, I reject the "ages" theory whole heartedly an believe it was a literal 7 days. But 7 of God's days. Which unto us is like unto 7000 years. Personaly I believe the science folks have a wreck of a time tryin to make thier date system work, I jes don't think it works an they cain't even agree on it. But it's more my personal belief an also a NON-ISSUE. The thins we people git into fights over.... this isn't goin to make er break someones soul from eternal life er hell....

A day or 7000 revolutions of the earth, whatever. It was completed in God's time, so we basically agree on this, although it isn't essential that this be understood, in fact any guess on how it was done is limited to our reasoning and the limited revelation of how it was done in the OT.

I'm not an expert either, and I think the particulars of the end times are interesting to discuss, but like creation not really an essential for us to understand.

I didn't get into the order of events, but we agree that the antichrist we come and a false peace proclaimed. At the end of this tranquil time all hell will break loose. After this gets really really bad for Christ's followers, Jesus will return and put an end to it in the battle of Armagedon, binding the devil for all eternity. We will meet Him in the clouds and return with Him for the judgement and establishment of the eternal kingdom. A new earth fully redeemed from the curse of death will be created.

I've heard other theories of pre-millenial, post-millenial, etc., but those are just theories.

As you can see from the posts above, you have made one initial statement, but then left the conversation without going forth and stating why you believe it and actually engaging in discussion about those things. Seems to me the only person who "did anything about it" provided the etire rest of the thread in posts. If you were involved and actively engaged in discussion, there would be more than one post from you and others..

I have been doing the research and acquiring the info I need to address the perpetual virginity thing, but you guys have failed to address the issue at all, provided no support for your position, and it appears have vacated the discussion...

:dunno:

When I get the info I need, I'll be back. Its been a busy weekend and husband has been home both Friday and Monday, so I haven't had much time..

"Perpetual virginity" has no meaning to me, personally.

The one verse I'm concerned with, that is the foundation of my beliefs is the one quoted by Sarah in the thread Squat started:

WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM............[will] have eternal life.

Doesn't say a thing about the perpetual virginity of Mary, not having instruments at worship service, or even having to worship in a church for that matter.

This threaed was started to address the belief in the perpetual virginity of Mary and that whole millenial and tribulation, not the tenants of salvation..Actually his 2 pts of contention are kinda not clearly stated, explained, or supported..

But for the record, the belief in Mary's perpetual virginity isn't salvific...

Ahh.. well.. then I of course bow out of the bullshit... I will not particpate in one of those silly, when your at your last straw we'll throw in the whole "a2j jes cain't spell anyways" stupidity..... I don't play the proper grammer stuff, I don't play the 15 point debate theory er whatever else the crap is... if sumthin is not clear folks can always ask for clarification.. but to often they wanna throw the "I cain't understand you, learn to spell" er the rest of that silly stuff............

.
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brotha...you jes' said a moufull....

I totally don't care about your spelling. Its your presentation that wasn't clear....

Last straw?? I have a wealth of inforation. I'm not at my last straw...I'm waiting for a discussion to ensue..

Gonna tell me why you believe what you believe and give support or not??? :waiting:

What did you say? :doh:

Given his recent choice in employment, I understand why he sounds like he's got sumthin' in his mouth... :bolt:

My question is....what does any of it matter? who cares if Mary was a virgin forever...or not? Who cares when the trib will happen? It has no baring on my salvation - or my belief. :dunno:

It matters for this thread because he raised those as his points of contention...Otherwise there'd be no point in his even starting this thread if he didn't want to address "points of contention"...

Actually these things belong back in my thread where we are all supposed to be discussing our beliefs and why we believe them..

Isn't that what this thread is supposed to be??

But why even form a "belief" about Mary's virginity in the first place? It has no baring on anything!
What do I believe about mary's virginity? I don't - because it doesn't matter if she was or wasn't!

We're ot trying to discuss whether or not it matters, we are just trying to discuss why it is or why it is not true. That is the whole point of discussing diferent beliefs...Not to debate, but to learn about each other and where we are coming from...

So, you are having a discussion about something that doesn't matter? Seems like a waste of time to me.

I'm not the one who started the thread. If those things weren't a "point of contention" why was the thread started in the first place?

Really I think it would go better if not addressed as points of contention but rather a more informative "why do you believe that?" and "Why I don't believe that" type thing...

Le's spilt a frickin hair over this word then huh?

Some mod, merge this er some damn thin wit the thread it spawned from... I was tryin to be nice an NOT derail someone elses thread, when Basil baffeled up some more thins, these were two points I wanted to discuss, I don't see what the deal is really, I listed in the OP what he had said an how I don't agree, he shot back wit... uh.. pretty much nuthin. This what annoys me wit the orthodox an the catholics for example. They spit out this stuff an then you question it, but there's not an answer to that particular question. It's like dogma er sumthin. They've got "A" answer for you, but it might not be "The" answer. Does that make sense?

Orthodox, accordin to Basil, have made a belief system out of Mary bein some eternal virgin where there is NO scriptureal evidence for, then when there is scripture for the end times. How in the hell can you justify that? You make up a belief where these isn't any evidence for it, then deny the eveidence of the word of God.

However you interpret scripture is how you are going to believe it. There is no scriptural evidence for Mary having sex either.. Remember, the Jews called each other brother regardless of specific detail of relation, i. e. cousin, uncle, etc. There are numerous examples of this throughout the entire OT and NT...And there is more evidence in records and writings from the time that confirm it. Not every single thing involving the Christian faith was canonized as Holy Scripture. IT would have taken volumes nad volumes to cover every thing and everyone's biography...Not necessary for scripture...

And as for premillennialism, rapture, etc, historical evidence shows that prior to John Darby of the Plymouth Bretheren in 1827, the rapture theory was NEVER taught, but Christians today take his teachings as fact because his interpretations have been passed down..That's an easy one to look up because it is so recent..You could google it...

Oh, the irony... :rollseyes:

Here in lies one of the thins that royally drives me nuts. For starters String, I do not need, nor do I like, nor do I rely on anyone else but God's word for truth. I don't buy into so an so's beliefs because they are 'accepted' beliefs, I don't care bout the feller you mentioned.

One thin I used to tell my x-wife was not to take everthin you hear as gossple but to make sure it lines up wit God's word. For example... the "word" rapture does not infact reside in the bible. Period. It doesn't.... but.. then... neither does half a dozen other words in relation to the english translation. It's fine to take everthin in, stick it on a shelf in the back of your mind an if it's good, true an of use, then fine. But do not do as the catholics an some extreme protestants do an simply rely on a "man" to tell you this is this an that is that an never bother to look it up for yoursef.

So no, rapture does not appear in the bible. But the takin away in a blink of an eye does..... I'll havta pull the scripture on it, Sarah an I looked this up bout 6 er 7 years back now, an I simply do not remember the scriptures on it.

Nope... your right, the bible does not say that Mary had sex.... but .... erm.... you've had sex? Ever other wife that I know of has had sex..... I wonder what's more likely. Mary was the wife of Joesph.. would he NOT wish to have sex wit his wife? I've never figured that out. It is far more likely that Mary went on, had sex, had more children, even though there isn't any backin in the bible for it. Though, folks have made this huge belief system out of it an there's no backin for it, niether is there backin that she did have sex an children. It jes comes down to what is more likely. An so far as I know there's not a belief centered round the fact that Mary did have sex an not bein stuck on a prasie peddelstal as the catholics an I understand the orthodox do.

Did she have sex? Did she not? Does it even frickin matter?

Umm...no, no it doesn't. Not at all. I could care less if she had sex or not because she is not the point - Christ is the point. Her having sex or nto having sex has no baring on Christ. Period. :wave:

:agree:

Was it a mistake,then, for you to bring it up as a "point of contention" and open it up for discussion (which no one is trying to do here, only griping and saying it doesn't matter) and/or debate? If it matters not, why mention it in a whole seperate thread at all?

Your certainly not tryin to be a jerk here String now are you? You perfectly know why this particualr point was raised here.. and as I have already said, git a mod to merge this back wit the other topic this spawned from. For craps sake I was tryin not to derail your thread after Basil brought this an some other stuff up....

What one do you want this to go back with??

I'm not sure it matters anyways GR, this has gotten kinda stupid wit the throwin of the "you don't spell right, er follow debate rules er whatever else" an kinda gotten silly. Basil didn't respond to the points I was tryin to discuss wit em an String seems to think I've made a mountain out of a mole hill. I'm content to let this one die off an be done, if nuthin else, provided I can member the thread it came out of, I'll jes post my post there an be done wit it. buuuuttt... that will be the last time I try an be nice an not derail someones thread :P