Rome has distorted the True Faith...They have introduced blasphemies, contradictions, and deceptions in the name of "God" for very selfish pruposes (indulgences anyone?) The Roman Catholic Religion took a bad turn and to this day perpetuates false teachings..

Much of what is taught by protestants who claim to follow only what the Bible says contradicts what other "bible following" groups teach. Without the proper context in which to read and understand the scriptures--in other words reading it on your own and hoping that you will be given the proper meaning and interpretaion by the same Holy Spirit who gives interpretation someone who is diametricaly opposed in belief to you..There are many areas in the scriptures that seem to contradict each other. Most denominations either ignore those scritures that conflict with what they are teaching or try to reinvent possible meanings to fit in with their teachings...

For example:

Protestant: "We are saved by faith alone"

Scriptures: James 2:14-26

14What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

15If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

16And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

17Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

18Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

19Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

20But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

25Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

26For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.


Since the scriptures clearly say that it is a cooperation of faith, action, and obedience it is not surprising that Protestants often skip over the book of James (since it contains so much that contradicts their beliefs). I believe that the point in this particular example that Protestant Christians prefer to emphasize is that deeds alone will not earn salvation but at the cost of the whole truth they ignore such passages as the one above that clearly state that action on our parts is necesary, and distort them to fit their doctrines..

At one point in Protestant history the leaders wanted to remove the books of James and Hebrews from the Bible because those books provide so many conflicts with what they believe...
(I believe that it was during those times that they also took out the Deuterocanonical Apocrypha)

So yeah, there are many things in the scriptures that seem to conflict with each other, especially with the limited historical foundation that Protestants have...

I know, I know this is gonna ruffle some feathers...but.................................................................................


Anyway..I have housework and homeschooling to do and want so much to come bace to this thread later. We can discuss the loss of faith, biblical contradictions, and outright lies being perpetuated by "Christians".. :wave:


:bolt:

I'm certain we don't want to draw lines in the sand and start the mudslinging here. There have been many, many "wrongs" done by the Catholic church as well. The church (read as collective including all faiths that recognize Christ as the savior and the Bible as truth) is filled with people. People are sinners. Obviously mistakes will be made. Argue all you like about the differences between the churches and I believe you are filling Satan's desires to divide the church. The Bible contains the central truths that we all believe in. By arguing about "small" things is foolish. Does it bring anyone else to Christ? Does it save any one else's soul? Does it do any good whatsoever?

Speaking in generalities is easy- Most Catholics just go to mass to ask forgiveness so they can go on living their sinful lives the rest of the week. That's a foolish statement. Saying that all Protestant churches don't encouage works is also a foolish statement. As I remember learning it the only thing said about these chapters in James (which I remember learning about in little kids' Sunday School) is that Christ saved you and the way you demonstrate your love for Him and your faith you do works. Works alone will not get you into heaven. I don't remember even thinking that faith alone can get you into heaven. Again it would be foolish to just have faith- I would doubt it- without desiring to demonstrate it via works! I have to ask again, why are we arguing about this? Is it winning anyone to Christ? I get tired of these theological debates among believers- what's the point? Catholic church is better than a Protestant one? Do they both believe in the same God? Are they both possible avenues to heaven? Do they both glorify God? Whatever- you win. Sure... Catholics are better. Can we get back to the work He has called us forth to do?




BTW- String my frustration isn't with you but with this whole issue. I hope you know... :hug: I still think you're kinda awesome.... for a Catholic!

Thanks!.....But I'm not Catholic! :) And I'm not Protestant! :)

Did you miss when I said:

B) :P

.
.
Nice....

.
.
bwahahahahahahaha.....


She's close though....hehe.

String, I'll be very honest here. I am tired of your protestant and Catholic bashing.

Please stop making generalisations about the protestant church. I have been involved in many protestant chuches over the years and I have not been in one that does not teach from James and does not understand the truth of faith in action. The churches I have been in do not ignore these passages or try to distort them so as not to have to put faith into action. Really, that is just slanderous to make those blanket statements about the protestant church. If you have been in one that did that, then talk about that one but don't direspect the whole church.

Sure, state what you believe about a theological topic, such as contradiction in the Word of God, faith in action, homosexuality or whatever we are discussing, but please stop slamming the protestant churches at every oppportunity you get. At the moment, you don't just discuss the differences, you slam the church for how wrong you think it is and I am finding it very disrespectful of the churches I have been in and what I believe.

BACK ON TOPIC

I don't think it is possible to know how it would affect your to lose your faith if you haven't lost it. Having grown up in the church there are many times I have questioned my faith and questioned God but I have never been far away. I have always believed and always known deep down in my heart that God is there, he is real and he loves me. The doctrinal stuff is the small fry and doesn't change who God is in my life.

Actually not close either...That is a total misunderstanding of my faith... I'm as much not catholic as I am not Baptist or Presbyterian.--So far removed are my beliefs from those of the RCs....

I am not bashing....

I'll deal with this later....I've got too much to do today and am in such a horrible mood that I really want to scream at someone so now wuld not be the time for me to address this... :nono:

Its later now, but I still do't have time, but I thought about it...

The things you say are "bashing" are just some of the things that cause many to lose faith in Christianity. You may not see in in your own personal church or from your perspective, but they are real and they do cause many to become disenchanted with the whole idea of "Christianity"...After a while a lot of it will come across as a load of BS...Why else do you think people leave the faith??? There has to be a reason. I simply stated a few...

I'll be the first to admit, String is always ready and poised for a fight, but I don't think she's being mean-spirited here. Wrong interpretations leading to wrong beliefs about God do in fact lead to great disillusionment in regards to our faith. If you expectation is A, and you get a whole lot of B, you're going to either bury your head in the sand and enjoy the ride, or begin to question why things don't line up and possible reject faith in God altogether.

More later.

Basil

What type of church do you attend then? I coulda sworn that I heard you talking about your catholic church at some point...

We are part of the Orthodox Church, which is just the name given to the Church established in 33 A.D. at Pentecost. At that time it was comprised of the collective local churches at Corinth, Phillipi, Jerusalem, etc. Now it exists with around 200 million people world-wide, including about 2.5 million Americans. It was from the one universal Orthodox Body, headed by Christ alone, that the Roman Catholic Church broke from officially in 1054 A.D. They went a new direction, the Orthodox Church continued without changing the teachings of Christ. History proves this, but in the U.S. we're centuries removed from the Orthodox Church, and geographically isolated from it. If your ancestors were Christian Europeans, they were originally Orthodox, until 1054, and until 1066 in England and Ireland, when the Roman Catholic Normans invaded. So, it's the ancient heritage of all Christians.

Basil

I'm not Protestant and wasn't refering to Protestant beliefs.

I want to hear what SE has to say about this.

Combining our Original topic with this new offshoot I have to ask- if the "ignoring" certain scriptures is such a turn off to people and encourage them to lose their faith then I have to ask, why isn't the Orthodox church growing at a much higher rate then the rest of the world's churches? Isn't it the only church preaching the truth? You'd think in a sea of unrepentant sinners and false prophets we'd see the one and only "true" church that comes directly from Christ's own would be growing like a weed! I'm not trying to be sarcastic, only trying to say that like it or not your church is just like ours. You may believe that yours holds more true to the gospel than other churches but unfortunately as stories get passed, translations get made, etc. things change.

What I find most interesting here is that none of us "Protestants" are trying to tell you that our denomination is the best and the rest are crap. You guys seem to be preaching it as if it were a tenant of your faith! I have a history minor and I appreciate that something that is as close as possible to a primary source has more relevance than something far removed. The Bible is a different type of book. It is God breathed and I honestly believe God protects it. The things that He values will stay, unchanged. The other frivilous stuff (there are things like this in the Bible, Jesus bitched about them) may be tweaked but again the central truth is still there.

...dang it- you got me doing Satan's work again! I hate it when I get roped into these debates. It does nothing but separate! I love Jesus. I know you guys love Jesus. I'll see you in heaven. Peace!

Well, actually the numbers of Americans discovering the Orthodox Church is on a steady increase. The number of adherents in our nation is now nearing 3 million. Numbers do not prove anything, as far as truth is concerned, as we all know, but the reality is, that at a time when mainstream protestant groups are on a sharp decline, Orthodoxy is experiencing healthy growth in the U.S. I think one reason is that people are looking for something with clear, unchanging continuity to the Church Christ established. You may say stories change, ideas and interpretations change, but the Church has struggled against this, and historically we can see that how we interpret scripture and practive our faith is unchanged since the time of Christ.

Basil

Really, if you search and look at the practice and beliefs of the Orthodox Church you will see that it remains unchanged. Nothing has been added or taken away. I dare you to look and find an inconsistancy. It would be so easy for me to look up a hundred things that have altered in the catholic church over the past 500 years, and the new idea that popped up and the modern founders of the new sects of Christianity that have begun since then. But the Orthodox church does indeed have a written record of its history and does indeed trace it all the way back to the apostles...The catholics claim the same thing and can trace theirs back to where it joins ours and then continues back to the original Christians, but as you will be able to see if you just look, the corruption in the Catholic church began when they seperated themselves from the One True Church...(Their sources will say that the Orthodox broke away, but anyone with half a brain can see the changes in their church vs. the stability in the Orthodox CHurch since then and see they are wrong)

I come from a Baptist background. It took me a while to actually believe all this stuff. But when the evidence was presented to me and proved to be irrefutable and true, I had to admit that I was totally wrong and that the faith I had practiced my entire life was rather off course...

The reality is, dear, that things haven't changed and there is evidence to prove it. It is the evidence that persuaded me. I could not fight against the evidence...

One can choose to continue to say "nuh-unh" and stick one's head in the sand but until one looks into it, one has nothing to base such accusations of "just like ours" on. And when one does actually take the time to look into it, one will find there are no changes throughout the entire history of the Orthodox Church.

It is still hard for me to accept some of the things about the faith and to internalize them, because of my foundation in protestant thinking. It is taking me a while to understand some things and to fully integrate them into my thinking, but God is patient and will be patient with me...

Oh, and I wanted to correct something my husband stated earlier...There are more then 250 million Orthodox Christians in the wrold...He sort of lost 50 million people somewhere...:nono:

Just to give you an idea of how the numbers compare to other sects of Christianity:

Methodist-------------50 million
Assemblies of God---48 million
Amish-----------------180 thousand
Seventh day Adventists--14 million
Lutheran---------------70 million
Anglican---------------77 million



ANYWAY----The point is there is a reason so many people lose faith in the Christian evangelical sects...Some of the things many of them teach are just plain wrong and intellegent people come to a realization of this and are often unaware that there is anything else more to Christianity than what lies before them. Others will continue to search and often, I kid you not, find in the Orthodox Church.. That is why here in the united sttes, the growth of Orthodoxy continues while most (not all) protestant church membership is declining...Look at the stats...

Don't worry, nothing you're saying is the least a bit offensive. I think all who've come into the faith have had similar reactions to the idea that some organized Body could lay claim to being the direct continuation of the Church established by Christ, especially those of us in protestant America, who've had to deal with so many inconsistencies, scandals, excesses, gimmicks, and heterodox beliefs among groups claiming to adhere to Christ.

It's not the least bit surprising to me that none of you are holding your denominations as the single group to have preserved the truth, unchanged, because it's evident that each of these groups sprang up much later in history and their ideas, although some may claim were original to the faith, cannot be traced beyond the fifteenth century, and many have teachings that are only around 100 years old. How can that be established truth, if it wasn't revealed and passed down from the beginning? Did God leave some things hidden until the reformation and revival movements in America? I grew up within "normal" mainstream protestant groups, so I'm not speaking as someone entirely removed from this category. I know there are many Americans who are very sincere good people, who still are part of groups who've changed the teachings of Christ--not out of some evil intentional plot to deceive people, but just because they've put their understanding above all Christians who preserved the truth before them.

Basil

This all may have seemed like a huge diversion from the OP, but the connection is that, if you have hundreds of groups claiming to be followers of Christ, yet they are all in dispute about important things, like how we are saved, is baptism necessary, did Christ die to appease God's wrath against us sinners, or did He come on a rescuse mission to save us from death, paying the price of His death to destroy death, not pay off God the Father, what actions are required on our part to be saved, etc. people begin to perceive incorrectly that no definitive truth exists, or it's impossible to know for sure what the truth is. When some see these inconsistencies, it gives room for the devil to create rational doubt about the truth of the faith, altogether. This is very sad. If I seem critical of protestantism, it's because I do believe, inadvertantly, it had done much harm to the world. It had caused confusion and led many people away from the authentic faith.

Basil

I'm going to go grab some books on the orthodox church, because it does interest me, but just outta curiosity do the people in this denomination believe that other denominations of the Christian church (lutheran, presbyterian, baptist, etc.) are so far from "the truth" that they aren't glorifying God any longer (they are in fact doing damage to His church) and even more are they not going to go to heaven because of their denominal affiliation?

There are tons of good resources online and many good books. I'll link some after dinner.

The thing that aided me most in sorting through these things was some historical evidence. One issue is to determine happened in the "Great Schism" of 1054, where the East and West divided. There had unarguably been one Church up to that date. We understand that it remained one, although the bishop at Rome and those with him departed from it, but left it wholely in tact. Roman Catholic sources, on the other hand, claim the Orthodox Church departed when both sides declared one another anathematized, or broken from the unity of the One Body of Christ.

In those days there were five major cities within Christendom: Jerusalem, Antioch, Constantinople, Alexandria, and Rome. Every city or region had a bishop charged with acting as a shepherd of that local area. The five bishops residing in these major cities were honored with the title Patriarch, because of the importance of the areas they served, but had no more authority than any other bishop. Each served only his local area, although the bishop at Rome was seen as the first among equals, since it was the Imperial City at the time. The bishop at Constantinople was second in honor. These were recognitions of honor, not indication of authority beyond their local area. When councils were called, like the one in the Book of Acts in Jerusalem, the patriarchs helped organize them and preside over them, although all bishops present were equal. When the schism occured between the churches in the east and Rome, all four of the other patriarchs affirmed that Rome was at fault and they remained united in what we term the Orthodox (which means right-believing) Church. They rejected the innovation of Papal Supremecy and preserved the collegial structure of the Church. Rome and the bishops in the western land of Europe departed and formed the new Roman Catholic religion, which can be judged by it's fruit. Individuals and rulers in Orthodox lands were not perfect, but the Church never departed the truth faith and made lies into dogma, like the Catholics.

Here's a helpful visual time line.

Basil

Your honest questioning of what you've interpretted the scriptures to say is good. We are supposed to struggle with the truth, not just lazily believe whatever sounds good to us, with no examination whatsoever.

The apparent contradiction, or at the very least apparent differences in how salvation is described in the NT should in no way call the power of the Holy Spirit into question. We serve a God Who doesn't possess, He inspires, unlike Mohammed, who claimed to have been visited by the angel Gabriel, and said his hand moved to write the Koran involuntarily. His conscious thought was supposedly not involved in the process. (Sounds more like demon possession). But because God used men to write scripture, some details or sequences of events may not match perfectly, but I would defend that the correct understanding of salvation is present with no errors or contradictions. The errors you find are from ahistorical interpretation. At the time they understood exactly what salvation entailed on our part, although God's the one doing the rescuing, their is action required to reach out and take that free gift given by His grace alone.

Here's a link to a very good article which does an excellent job of explaining why atheism and agnosticism are such huge problems for us in the western world and explains the alteration to the doctrine of salvation within the Roman Catholic Church, which then influenced the ideas of most protestant groups who are descended from it. No matter how they choose to describe God, the RC view of salvation makes Him out to be a being to be feared, and hard to love. To love God, as they make Him out to be, requires a lot of trying to justify His cruelty, like an abused child trying to love a cruel father. Read this: River of Fire

Basil

Here are some links containing a wealth of knowledge:

Orthodoxy In America

Orthodox Christian Information Center

On Orthodox Faith and Life

Orthodox Research Institute

Basil

We should rename this thread - String and Basil--defending their faith.

:P

Sorry, but I cannot think of any other way to address the OP, than to get to the root of the problem, where the confusion that led to his spiritual crisis can be addressed. These inconsistencies that have challenged his faith are birthed from ahistorical Christianty, which has lost all touch with Christ and the gospel as it was originally presented. The gospels of men, devised much more recently, don't hold up to scruitiny. Those who analyze them closely frequently depart from Christianity. They reject their Creator and only source of Rescue from death, based on rejection of a distorted beliefs.

Basil

These are some really offensive claims guys... As I've said previously I'm doing my homework now and I'll look into your denomination but I have to say from what I've read online so far it seems like one of the major tenants of the faith is "we're right and everyone else is wrong." It also seems to have this opinion that if you follow any other church it is only because you have your head in the sand, aren't educated or are in some other way foolish. Seems like quite an arrogant religion to me.

I'm a Seahawks fan. If you like any other team then you are wrong and stupid. Only those who really like the honest game of football are Seahawks fans. More than that if you are a fan of any other team then you are doing damage to the National Football League, leading people away from the game, and one day you will have to pay for your transgressions.

How would you debate with someone like this? You are immediately labeled "stupid" and thus any argument you may mount is coming from a simpleton.

So far I've seen very little that the Orthodox church stands on except that it is this really old church and historically claims that it is the only church that remains true to the original church of Christ. Frankly, I find them devisive so far. I'm not done and I am trying to keep an open mind but I'll be damned if they aren't quite a bit offensive...

Point well taken. I know it's a difficult thing to conceive that this type of unity did or can exist. We've all experienced quite the opposite here in the U.S., where there are so many different groups all labelled as Christian denominations, but aren't part of one single united body, as clearly the Church was at the beginning.

I guess this gets into ecclessiology, or what we believe the Church's structure really is. Jesus gives this metaphor: "I am the Vine, you are the branches." The Church is also described as the Body of Christ, which, like the vine metaphor, infers a much greater organic unity than exists through denominational divides. A body acts in full cooperation within itself, unless you've had a few shots of tequila. A grape vine produces the identical fruit on each branch, not various types. The DNA from one grape will be identical to another, just as the truth perserved in one local church will match that taught in another on the other side of the globe, if they are part of the same body, of which Christ is the head.

It would be devisive if the Church were some exclusive club, but the banquet table is set and everyone's invited to the feast. Degrees of truth remain in other groups, but they have been divided from the organic whole and do not operate in cooperation with it, having developed new understandings of the gospel, which are at odds with what can be seen historically to have been taught from the very beginning with one clear undivided voice.

Basil

No. You misunderstand... This is not a tenant of the faith. :doh: The reaction you are having is perfectly natural and normal. Everyone hates to be told that they could be in error....I personally was pissed off and irritated when originally confronted with the Orthodox Church..

No no no no no no no. That is not it at all. I was taught that the baptists had it right. Cliff was taught that the Lutherans then Methodists then Charismatics had it right. So, no. That is not what we are saying at all. I am sorry it came across as accusing others of being stupid or whatever, its just that we only know of Christianity what we have been taught by our leaders. (As fallable human beings we cannot come to a full understanding of the scriptures on our own, so our church background does have a major impact in interpretation.) As I looked at the Baptist faith and compared it to the ancient history of the Orthodox faith, I realized that I was wrong. That the relatively new Baptist faith(originated in approx. 1600 AD) didn't quite have it all right. Was I stupid because I was and had been Baptist all my life? No.. I just had not ever thought that perhaps what I have been believing forever might not be what the apostles taught or spread after Christ died. Actually, I never thought about where the Baptist faith originated. I just accepted it as true and never questioned it. The best thing you can do is question your faith and examine its roots. You will either find your faith to be solid, unconflicting, and perfectly in line with the original Christian church that Christ founded, or you will find that somethings not quite right, and if your heart truly wants to find the Truth, you will find it. God will lead you to it.

Each of us has been exposed to the Christian religion from a different perspective. Can each and every one of those persuasions be right?? There are currently about 30,000 different expressions of Christianity. Are they all right? Its not possible for each one of them to be 100% correct in their interpretation of the scriptures. The Holy Spirit is not going to lead us in 30,000 different directions. He has only one Truth...It cannot be devided into thousands of bits...Although each of the denominations of Protestant Christianity may contain some truth, by their very nature of being a de-nominated part of the whole, they cannot be all correct..

That is exactly what I used to think. From where I was, everyone I knew was protestant and we all accepted each other as just as valid (mostly) and never really discussed the real innards of our beliefs with each other. Honestly, if everyone here on this forum were to start discussing the opposing doctrines of their faiths then you would probably say the same about each and every one in that discussion. They will all think they are right and the others are wrong. We hate to be told that we could possible be wrong.. The difference is that the only thing they can base their beliefs on are the biblical interpretations of the founders of their denominations which will be no more than 500 years old. The evidence that supports our faith is overwhelming. It literally goes back all the way to the apostles. There is a paper trail that cannot be denied or refuted. Christ promised that the gates of hell would not prevail against His church, and they have not. Either the Church has been preserved, or Christ told a lie when he said this..

mmmmmmmm...I'm afraid that this analogy doesn't really work because of the very nature of the "National Football League" A league of teams is intended to play and complete against each other, whereas the Body of Christ was never intended to be broken into thousands and thousands of parts...

Like I said earlier, that is a natural reaction to the seemingly outlandish claims made by Orthodoxy...But when you look at it, there really is no way to refute these things. Everything you find about historic Christinity will support it and the only claims against it are those that originated within the last 500 years (1000 if you want to use Roman Catholic claims).

Inside I was angry and offended and pissed off and just plain mad at this whole thing...until I surrendered my will to truth I could not disprove.

:popcorn:

Aready addressed that one! A little late for the popcorn after the movie K! :P :gotcha:

Still reading the responses. I post when I see something to comment on :P

Oh oh oh I almost forgot!

A great online place to listen to deeper explainations of different aspects of the Orthodox faith is Our Life in Christ. The guys are fun(ny) to listen to and really clarify things in language those of us from protestant backgrounds can understand. There are many many topics listed (each show covers one topic) to check out..

I don't think String and Basil are being offensive, they are just stating what they believe. I don't feel you guys are being offensive, I'm talking about the things I've read online. Some of these guys out there are really a-holes and aren't doing your denomination any services...

Do you feel like I'm attacking you? I certainly hope not!

No, I don't feel attacked...And yes, some out there really are butts...Where are you finding them?

That question has already been answered:

And Orthodoxy is not considered a "denomination" because it existed about 1500 years before "denominations" did...

Maybe YOU don't consider it a denomination - but others do. :D

Denominator: The expression written below the line in a common fraction that indicates the number of parts into which one whole is divided. -American Heritage College Dictionary.

What did Orthodoxy break from, to make it a fraction of a whole? And when did this occur?

This isn't a Kirby vacuum I'm trying to sell, I'm just voicing what a little historic investigation has revealed and could reveal to anyone, if they want to understand Christ as He revealed Himself, rather than what later men made Him out to be.

Basil

Nevermind..

Gutter, its not about "Us against Them"...You've broken the original thread and created a title for this part that by its very nature pits us against each other and that is not what the discussion was about at all. We all have the same goal here, and that is to seek Christ.

I am rather irritated that this has been done to the thread and am very sorry that you misperceived..well..everything...

Because this thread is a "Proteatant vs Orthodox" thread and because that is not my purpose or intent, I am not going to post in this thread you've created.

Goodbye :wave:

Basil and String, all I see you doing here is proclaiming the Orthodox Church. That is NOT what we are told to do in scripture. I am not interested in listening to you proclaim a church I am interested in hearing the proclamation of the gospel, the good news of Jesus Christ, the Son of God who revealed the Father and his love for us in sending his only Son that the world might be saved. Who has given us his Spirit to reveal the truth to us and that Jesus is now seated at the right hand of the Father, ever interceding for us!!

You have spent post after post lauding the standing of the Orthodox Church as having the truth of the gospel but rarely do I hear you presenting that truth. Rather I hear boasting of your Church and it's historical standing and the holder of truth.

I stand with Paul who says "Therefore as it is written: "Let him who boasts boast in the Lord" (1Cor 1:31)

"May I never boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world" (Gal 6:14)

"When I came to you, brother, I did not come with eloquence or superior wisdom as I proclaimed to you the testimony about God. For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified..........My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit's power, so that your faith might not rest on men's wisdom, but on God's power" (1Cor 2:1-5)

and

ICor 10-17

vs 17 "For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel - not with words of human wisdom, lest the Cross be emptied of its power"

If you truly believe that the Orthodox Church holds the truth then preach that truth. Most times when you speak about theology and truth, it seems you spend most of your time defending and 'proving' the validity of the Orthodox Church. Instead preach the truth you say you hold.

You say this (not being in the Orthodox Church) is why people dont understand the scriptures and lose faith. Then explain them. So far, I have never heard you speak any matter of theology or scripture that I haven't understood or agreed with. You have never preached anything about the Father, Jesus or the Holy Spirit, the gospel or scriptures that has taught me anything new or revelatory. You say your church holds the answers, then share them. I have seen nothing in your posts that shows me you have anything different or more in the things of God.

I am not interested in hearing you preach the virtues of the Orthodox Church, the Orthodox Church did not die for me. Stop preaching the credentials of the Orthodox Church

Preach Jesus and him crucified!!

And when you blame the protestant church for the woes of the church and people losing faith, then you are protestant/Catholic bashing IMO. I am not interested and it is offensive.

If you want any one to listen, proclaim the Word of God and proclaim JESUS

That's true. If I were talking with someone who didn't believe in Christ at all the conversation would be different. It's just so sad to see the harm of having so much chaos among Christian groups, so unity is the most important topic for us to discus. Who knows how many lives have been affected by the lack of unity among us? Christianity in the U.S. and beyond has now become "white noise" to many people in society, because our beliefs appear relative and in some examples ridiculous, being changed by societal trends, personal or denominational interpetations, consumer-driven worship, etc. What we are holding up is the source of stability, or as Paul stated, the ground and pillar for the truth. The Church supports the gospel, insuring that it is not corrupted by change. That's why it's so important. The other details of truth can be undestood later, if we can at least establish where to look for accurate info.

Maybe we can have a thread sometime to compare and contrast the different beliefs, each of us hold.

Basil