I was seriously thinking about making another identity and posting this b/c I was afraid everyone here would judge me unfairly. I've heard/read something recently that has really got me thinking, especially since our discussions about homosexuality in another thread.

Let's start off by me saying that I do believe that homosexuality is a sin but I want to try and make an argument for it.

To start us off can I get your Biblical support for homosexuality being a sin...

oooooo...fun times!!! :pepsi: :popcorn: :clap:

There's more in the OT, but since most people say that the OT law is no longer valid (do you wear cotton blends? do you eat shrimp?), I choose a NT passage.

Now, fire. I'm wearing most of my armor. But only with God's help am I ready to face the flaming arrows...

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Sorry claybro...no matter WHAT you say, you won't be able to sway seige from the Hershey dark side.

:fan: :puke:

You mean he's coming out of the closet?

I hate you...

Squat struck a nerve! :popcorn:

Okay, once again, I feel that homosexual behaviors ARE a sin (I'm also not gay-contrary to what Squat may say).

Here is the KJV of that same passage....

"Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, "

and?


BTW Clay...nice use of words there...FLAMING arrows... :rollseyes:

I still read that verse talking about homosexuality (among others stuff), altho maybe not as straight-forward as the one Clay quoted.

My view? Being a practcing homosexual is the sin. Living the lifestyle, etc. But I think you can be gay and be a Christian AND get into Heaven. Somebody is gay, but they don't live the lifestyle.......are, in effect, celibate. Avoiding the sin and repenting of it, realizing that it's wrong and against God's will. Then, I think they will be welcomed into God's kingdom.

But who am I to say? I'm still hoping that He'll welcome ME~ :dunno:

You'll be welcomed into Heaven with loving arms, you don't need to worry.

I'm not disagreeing with Clay, just asking a question:

Doesn't God make us righteous upon accepting our faith in His son as our Lord and savior? If so (and that is what I believe), then faith is what makes us righteous, not our actions. Someone can be clean of all of those actions and not be righteous, correct?

Yes........but I believe that once you accept Jesus as your Saviour, you won't want to be "unrighteous", in this case, live the homosexual lifestyle.

I think somebody can SAY they accept Him, but if they're still practicing that kind of behaviour and not repentant of it, then they truly haven't accepted anything.

I'm not siding for or against this issue..... it really doesn't matter to me I don't engage in that lifestyle nor do i plan to... I have firends that do and that's between God and them but I do have to ask.

Christ taught ... scratch that teaches us because the learning is still a going on.... us to accept everyone as they are, to love everyone as they are as if they were your own brother or sister.

Isn't this prejudice against Homosexuals contrary to that teaching?

I mean if someone is doing evil against us aren't we to turn the other cheek and let them continue, as they will earn their own reward in the end?

What evil are Homosexuals doing against us? (and if they are can we turn the other cheek and be good christians.... :butt: or risk falling into their clutches... Hey I had to insert a joke here I was getting to serious... ) If God were to tell you that loving your sposue is wrong, would you could you walk away and truly say "Sorry God, I'll love better next time?"

Could it be that someone in thrier translating the Bible took a stand and said.. gays freak me out let's tweak this wording a little here and there to make it a sin to love another of the same gender. I'd like to be able to understand the original texts and be able to read them to see what they truly said, i think too much of the Bible has been corrupted by our various translations and interpitations that go into each translation of the Bible.

" You see what God is trying to say is this....." What if Rev. Bob has it wrong and God meant it like this or literally what he said and wasn't using a parable / metaphor that time?

That's like saying "I'm a thief but I don't steal," or "I'm a murderer but I don't kill."

God will not allow anyone to be tempted beyond what we can bear. Sin is the result of succumbing to temptation. When one is tempted to sin in any manner (murder, lying, sexual sins, etc.) that person has two options:

• Call out to God for the power to resist
• Cave

1 Cor. 10 tells us that God will not allow us to be tempted beyond what we can bear. If we are tempted to do something that is a sin, it is up to us to recognize the temptation and call on God for the power to withstand it. Doing so, we are following God's commandments. Resisting the temptation builds the faith within us that we will be able to resist greater temptations as our spirituality matures. It will not free us from future temptations!!! It will only give rise to greater and greater temptations.

Homosexuality is nothing more than a sexual temptation. Murder is either a greed or power temptation. No matter what science says, I cannot believe homosexuality is a "born" thing any more than I can believe murder is. Those who refuse to resist the temptation are refusing to accept God's gift which He freely gives to all who ask.

The greater the temptation to which we refuse to yield, the greater we will be trusted. God, like the Marines, is looking for a few good people to carry His Word into a lost and lonely world. That is why we are here.

Oh - and I'm firm in my conviction that He will welcome me. I'm just hoping to hear "Well done, good and faithful servant." If you're not sure, I implore you to call upon Him and ask.

Who said anything about prejudice toward homosexuals?

We reach out to all regardless of their sin. In prison, I make sure that they understand I believe them to be no more a sinner than me. Even the rapists and murderers I counsel. And there's a lot of rampant homosexuality in the prisons.

Nobody will change their ways based on condemnation if they don't believe in what is condemning them. "Get out of the X-ray room or you'll get too many zoomies and die." "I don't see or feel them. They can't hurt me!" You first have to show them the love and total forgiveness of Christ without addressing whatever sin they may be involved. After they come to accept the love and forgiveness, the Holy Spirit will indwell them and they will find that there is a reality to their sin. And the Holy Spirit will condemn them - just as He did to me this morning when I lost my temper with my kids.

Homosexuality is condemned far too often in the Bible to be a translation error. I am learning Greek so I can learn to study the original text. If you honestly believe this is a translation error (whether on purpose or not), then I suggest you read the DaVinci Code. There's a lot more conspiracy theory to grab on there.

A sin is a sin. Just like it's been said so many times in this column. I have friends and neighbors who are pagans (Hindu). They worship thousands of major and minor deities. I cannot condemn them without first demonstrating the truth behind Jesus Christ. Otherwise, it's simply my religion versus theirs. In fact, one of my Hindu friends told me once, "I like talking to you about Christ. You're the first person who ever talked about Him without making me feel like he was trying to ram it down my throat."

I want to teach my friends about Christ. I know that if I force it upon them, they will revolt.

Well those can both be mindsets that we fight against daily like I'm an alcoholic but I no longer drink....

You still have the urge the need to do it but you resist it with your every fiber....

:nod: That's what I was trying to say.

Exactly. Many may have desires and urges toward those of the same gender, but also have the ability to see that this is wrong, and so they struggle against those thoughts and urges. As long as they do not succumb and act on those desires, they will not be sinning in that way. Bu8t if they break and go to gay websites or even go so far as to meet up with a person for "illicit activities" then they will be sinning.

So yes, it is possible to "be gay" but not sin in that way... I believe that if the person can actually conquer those thoughts and feelings with the grace of God, the demons will eventually stop trying to "get 'em" in that way and turn to another form of temptation...

This is a good thread and there are a million points I'd like to address, but I don't have time right now...Gotta go make dinner...Be back toorrow..

From a recovering alcoholic - that made a lot of sense. I'm an alcoholic. It doesn't necessarily mean I go out and get drunk every night.

Point conceded.

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"hate" is a strong word good bro....

I think Satan has "strongholds" on many. So even if we accepted Christ as our personal Lord and Saviour and want to live our lives for Him and mirror Him, if we don't realize and 'find' that bondage, we can't. Many Christian Homosexuals feel their lifestyle is right.

Sorry, I started this but with Parent Night and everything at school lately I've just been swamped so I haven't been able to post or do any more research into this topic. Without going back to cite specifics the homosexual Christian (practicing) considered that even from the KJV to the NIV there could be some ambiguity in the interpretation of scripture so he did further research (I'm sure looking for what he ultimately "found") and found that the Bible had come quite a ways from what was initially written.

I went to this new church last Sunday. The church needs 4K a week to make it. It only pulled in less than 2K. I looked at those in attendance and the cars in the parking lot. There were over a hundred and fifty people there. This was one of two services. There were some very nice cars there. In San Jose the poverty line begins at about 103K per year. If you make less than that it is virtually impossible to buy a house without some kind of special assistance. Let's just say for a minute that out of the 150 people at the service only 100 are members and are thus tithing their 10%. Weekly this comes out to almost 10K a week! What the hell is happening?

EVERY WEEK these people are sinning against God! I'm not trying to judge I'm just trying to put things in perspective. They continue with their sinful lifestyle. Isn't this what most practicing homosexuals claim? I'm not saying that since everyone is sinning it levels the playing field, this isn't comparative Christianity. What I am saying is I have some issues with the people who can judge these men and women so harshly when the fact of the matter is you are continuing a sinful lifestyle in other ways. How is this any worse? Is it the "gross factor"? Why is their sin so much worse?

I started this thread to kind of show how they can justify their sin. We do it all the time. I don't have as much time as I'd like to go through and post all the scripture and historical background as the individual I listened to (I'll try and post a link to the actual sermon I listened to if I can find it again) but I hope that I've shed a little light on this. We twist scripture and make it fit our lifestyles all the time. If we do it, it's okay. If they do it, it is an abomination.

Their sin is more easily seen. Is that thier problem or is it ours in that we aren't transparent and essentially lie about our spiritual walks?

(Oh, and Squat I was quoting a movie I just saw with the "I hate you" comment. I saw Wedding Crashers and Vince Vaughn says it to Owen Wilson when he is on the ground after getting tackled for a second time. It's a pretty funny scene.)

Actually, this process of thought is inaccurate. Although the NIV is a later version than the KJV it is not derived from the KJV, or in any way a 'further down the line' translation as in chinese whispers. In fact, the NIV is translated from the advantage of having many more documents to get a more accurate translation from. The resources available when translating the KJV were very limited compared to what was available when the NIV was formed.

This makes the NIV and the RSV far more accurate to the original Greek than the KJV. As far as I am aware, this is historical and scholastic fact.

This is something we talk about alot in our church. Why do we judge one more sin more harshly than another?

One of my customers recently began attending my church. She's divorced and remarried and asked me if she was going to be judged for this. She explained that she'd practically been run out of her Catholic church for her divorce. She recognized it was wrong to divorce, but her previous spouse was abusive and a danger to her. Who could fault her for seeking safety? Not God. Does he forgive her? Of course!

The point is, why would a church rate sins? And then, what about the unseen sin? What about the guy surfing for porn behind his wife's back? What about the church ladies gossiping about the divorced lady? And the woman who habitually overeats when no one's looking? Or the teen lying to his/her parents?

We've talked about this before-sin is sin.

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This is a good argument...

IMHO, the bottom line...is that God hates sin...whether it's homos, porn, rage, lies; I think it's all the same to Him. I know I rely on GRACE way to much with my own sin, but I also feel everyone else does also (well...maybe not string).

As sinful beings, we don't have the capability to be "perfect", only "perfect in Christ".

As far as myself and answering siege's Q....I would put myself in that "judge homos more" catagory (I'm sure that's a sin in and of itself). Not because of their sin, but because of their lifestyle. That is, what seems to be a total disregard for morality, self-worth and common sense. Plus the fact that homosexuals and their agenda are becoming more & more socially "accepted" that I consider it a threat to my children. This makes me angry.

One of our counselors here at the Uni where I work is a married lesbian. And has adopted two children. The other day at the soccer field, there was a little boy who had two mommies...Do you think the odds that these kids WILL be homosexual is greater than if that had straight parents? You're a fool if you don't. IMHO, it's like giving a child to a pedophile....yet because homos have "rights" they are alllowed to raise children and propagate their sin. Sexual deviants should NOT raise, nor be around children. IMHO, this is "what makes their sin worse"...even though "technically" I don't believe that.

This is why I DO NOT want my children to have homosexual teachers, pediatricians or pastors. Rather than promote homosexuality as wrong...it's promoted as OK. And it's not. So there.

Its not that their sin is worse, and in fact we are told by the apostle Paul to look on ourselves as the "cheif of sinners." At no point in my posts on this topic have I even discussed the homosexual people themselves. I am talking about the promotion of it by our society. The point is that the media and public eye looks upon the sin of homosexuality not as a sin, but as an acceptable way of life. They laud those who come out of the closet and criticize those who condemn the activity as a sin. The opponants, who do not support the homosexual lifestyle as a valid and good activity, are deemed archaic, close-minded, prejudice, biggots, intolerant...among many other "vivid descriptions"....The public schools do not teach it as a sin. They support it and validate it. My point is that the public schools, media, society, etc. are praising this sinful lifestyle and teaching our children that they should praise it too. Teaching our children that their parents are wrong when they say homosexuality is bad, teaching them to be just as critical of the "christians" and "intolerant" as they themselves are.

We are not judging the sin as worse than any other, just that it is sin and should be discussed as such. It should not be taught as an acceptable behavior by teachers who have to present it as an alternative to heterosexuality, who have to present it as merely existing in the world, but MUST NOT condemn the sin, MUST NOT tell the kids that it is wrong, just as theft is wrong, and MUST NOT suggest that the behavior goes against the will of God or against nature itself..

Tell me, siege, as a Christian can you tell your children in class that this lifestyle is wrong? Or must you present it as an equal to heterosexual marriage as a condition of your employment??

:popcorn:

Have you ever noticed that SEXUAL sins seem to be the worst to many Christians? It seems like they would more easily forgive someone of murder than adultery.

I don't have any proof of this, but I'd guess it ties back into the Catholic traditions. 'Sex is bad, so the priests and nuns can't do it. However, if we keep everyone from doing it, there won't be any new Catholics.'

The way it works is I show a video, the video states- I believe it says exactly "There are some people who have sexual attraction for those of the same gender. These are called homosexuals" but I can't be sure- I don't have the video now or I'd check. I don't present it as equal but I do present it as something that occurs. I understand that if I don't present it as an abomination that it can seem that I'm presenting it as a viable option... but what would you have me do? I present the crime of killing Native Americans and stealing their land as progress. Where's the advocates for this?

I hear what you are saying but what I don't like is the fact that you've chosen this sin as being the worst! Frankly, do you "deserve" to raise your kids? You are a sinner and you are certain to raise sinners that copy and propogate your sin. I am the same way.

Okay, recess is over I've gotta get back to teaching these kids how to be gay...

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:doh:

Another "expert".....hehe.



seige...I'm taking a stand as a father on this one...even though I may not be right in your eyes.
When you have kids you will either say:
A-)"WOW squat was right, I don't want my son showering in front of that gay PE teacher"
or
B-)"hmmmm....There is Mr. Jones with his hand in his pocket making sure his students are showering...I'm so glad he's teaching my son!"


eric....I agree, the sex sins seem worse (although I think most can agree that in God's eyes there is no "worse"...eh?)

Why is it that the sex stuff has become less and less taboo as society has "evolved"? and secondly...should it be less taboo...or should it be more "private"? Should we ALL come out of "our closets" and tell the world we are homos, hetros (angry or not), pedophiles , chicken humpers, or closet porn addicts?

I think part of the fear is the common sense fact that the MIND is the tool to an ACTION...and if a pedophile thinks about predatory molestation, then it will physically happen. That's why I don't want homo's checking me out at the health club shower, taking that vision of my 10 rated butt-cheeks home with them. In this case, "Ignorance is Bliss"....but still we take necessary towel precautions with our privates.

Another interesting fact...we really DON'T KNOW who is in what closet, doing what with which hand.....we give people the benefit of the doubt with such things. Afterall, would you leave your kids at home alone with a pedophile/pervert if you REALLY knew? I seriously doubt it.

-me

I guess, to me, it comes down to equal rights. Because you sin a certain way doesn't mean that you shouldn't receive a quality education nor should your particular sin be singled out. When the subject comes up I think that as a parent I need to teach what we believe but also teach that a lot of people don't believe that way and our best option is to pray for them and love them anyway.

Since you want to take it to the 9s I'll say that even for a pedophile I would be as loving. I've said before that I've worked with sex offender kids and I realize that there is so much behind what they do that one can almost forgive them as products of their environment. It's really quite terrible. I view homosexuals as the same way. Since I too doubt that there is some genetic predisposition to homosexual behavior I believe it meets a need. God intended that they get that need met in another fashion but unfortunately they are avoiding God's way.

Now I don't agree with homosexuals and their lifestyle but I also don't agree with witches, the nazi regime, and communists but all three of these are taught about in the Salem witch trials, WW2 and the cold war! Do you see what I'm saying here? Being educated about something DOES NOT mean that you take it as being okay! Belief systems like that give us false worship of history in "Honest" Abe and Teddy Roosevelt. These guys were human. They sinned.... oops, the kids are back from lunch!

Again, I never said it was worse. I said it was advocated..

Can you quote me saying it was worse than any other?? I'm serious..If you got that impression I want to know which of my words communicated that to you so I can be more aware next time. Seriously, please show me...

When society advocates sinful behavior, the line must be drawn. Does society advocate murder? Does society advocate robbery? Does society advocate theft? No, no, and no. Does our society advocate sinful sexual lifestyles? YES!

It seems that you have been missing my point and keep hearing some voice saying that homosexuality is worse..That is not what I said or ever insinuated.


I can recall saying this, in opposition to any implication that homosexuality is wrose than other sins:

On another point:

I think the real question is what would your God have you do? remember, we will be held accountable for every word uttered from our mouths..

My last exposure to this on the elementary level didn't call this progress, but just what happened...

Society advocates many sinful behaviors - greed, idoletry, gluttony, and many others - are on the daily menu as totally acceptable in our society. Yet - when it comes to casting a vote - Christians will only ask about 2 things - gays & abortion. Nothing else matters to Christians.

do I agree w/ the gay lifestyle? no. Am I going to get all upset and go stand outside w/ a bullhorn & a sign? no. Am I going to shield my kids from everything gay from Richard Simmons to the Gay Pride Parade? no. I'm not going to run from the gay person. I'm not going to scream or preach at the gay person. I'm going to invite them over for dinner with my family, get to know them, and talk to them about Christ and his love for them.

Again, why do we get so up in arms - so upset about the idea of a gay person?

Well said GR. Trouble is I don't know any gay people to invite over at the moment.

That's what I need to work on. Getting to know more people who don't know Jesus yet so I can introduce them to him. I'd rather focus my energy on that.

Who has done that??


I am upset about schools telling children that it is a good lifestyle and that their parents are backward and wrong for telling them otherwise..

Who does that? I'd NEVER tell my students that their parents were wrong or backwards about something EVER. I've told you what I say- it occurs. That's it.

Where I'm coming from with the "homosexuality is the worst sin" thing is the action by many parents. "If they even teach that homosexuality exists, my kids are getting homeschooled!" We teach plenty of other stuff that is taught just as homosexuality is taught (NA genocide, slavery, etc.) I also teach that NA's were polythieistic in their beliefs- I don't teach that as being a "good thing" but I do mention that it existed and still exists. "It's in the homosexual agenda to get teachers to teach that homosexuality is a viable lifestyle choice" Maybe it is an agenda, but my job is to create a learning environment that encourages education and is safe for all learners and all beliefs. Is this a wrong thing? If a child has homosexual parents, should that child be judged? Should I teach hate?

If you homeschool your child is learning how to sin, from you. I'm not against homeschooling but if your reason is because you don't want them to be taught that homosexual behavior is okay, or other such behaviors then you have to own up to the fact that YOUR sins are being passed to YOUR children. If you aren't tithing and your child sees this then your child is seeing your sin and more than my teaching that "those who don't tithe do exist" (as it might be in school) you are teaching them that it isn't a sin, (or if it is it isn't a big one) and that it is okay. Your actions teach them that it is okay to lie to grandma about why you don't call, or speed when you are in a hurry to get somewhere. You may not mention these things, you may not "teach" them formally but they are still getting taught.

To my knowledge, none of the kids I've taught have ever turned gay because they heard my "sex ed" lesson. Know what else hasn't happened? Kids who have two mommies or two daddies haven't been singled out or beat up on the playground. What would you have me teach about homosexuality? Nothing? Should I ignore that it exists? What else should I ignore? Shall we rewrite history? Shall we ignore scientific discoveries if they don't align with our beliefs? (don't read too much into that) Should we ignore realities of today's society in order to shelter our kids from the real world?

What do you want me to teach? You want me to leave out that homosexuals exist entirely? You want me to mention it but at the same time say that it is a wrong lifestyle? What do I do about the child who has gay parents or gay family members? What would you have me tell them? Are children (aged 10-11) able to understand the concept of "love the sinner, hate the sin?"

I'm with Seige on this one.

I don't think schools are coming out & saying that parents are un-informed, wrong, stooopid, backward, or otherwise when talking about the homosexual lifestyle. I don't see anything wrong with the topic of homosexuality being addressed in the school system, just like I don't see anything wrong with genocide, slavery, or the Ku Klux Klan being addressed as well.

Face it, it's a fact of life. There are gay people in this world and our children need to know about that lifestyle and not necessarily to accept it with open arms, but to be able to deal with it. Meaning, not be judgemental and filled with hate but be tolerant of those people.