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| Why cant' they marry after gaining the priesthood... |
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| and for that matter say the priest becomes widowed can he remarry or is he stuck having to riase the kids alone, and for that matter if they can't marry after enteringhte priesthood can they at least still date? |
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| Oh and can women join the priesthood and become a priest or does the orthodox have nuns too? How about monastic orders? |
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| GOD AND HOLINESS It must be stated at the beginning that the only true "saint" or holy one (Hagios) is God Himself. The Bible states "For I am the Lord your God; you shall name yourselves holy and keep yourselves holy, because I am holy ... " (Levit. 11:44; 19:2 and 20:7). Man becomes holy and "sainted" by participation in the holiness of God. Holiness or sainthood is a gift (charisma) given by God to man, through the Holy Spirit. Man's effort to become a participant in the life of divine holiness is indispensable, but sanctification itself is the work of the Holy Trinity, especially through the sanctifying power of Jesus Christ, who was incarnate, suffered crucifixion, and rose from the dead, in order to lead us to the life of holiness, through the communion with the Holy Spirit. In the Second Letter to the Thessalonians St. Paul suggests: "But we are bound to thank God always for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because from the beginning of time God chose you to find salvation in the Spirit that consecrates you, (en agiasmo Pneumatos) and in the truth that you believe. It was for this that He called you through the Gospel we brought, so that you might possess for your own the splendor of our Lord Jesus Christ" (2: 13–14). CATEGORIES OF SAINTS Through the work of the Holy Trinity all Christians could be called saints; especially in the early Church as long as they were baptized in the name of the Holy Trinity, they received the Seal of the Spirit in chrismation and frequently participated in the Eucharist. In the same spirit St. Paul, when writing to the Churches he had visited, calls all the faithful "saints." Writing to the Ephesians, he addresses "the saints who live in Ephesus" (1:1); writing to the Corinthians he uses the same expressions (2 Cor. 1:11). St. Basil, commenting on this point, writes that Paul refers to all those who are united with God, who is the Being, the Life and the Truth (Against Eunomius, II, 19). Furthermore, St. Paul writes to the Colossians that God has reconciled men by Christ's death, "so that He may present you before Himself holy, without blemish and innocent in His sight" (1:22). In our society, however, who can be addressed as a saint? Who are those men and women and children who may be called saints by the Church today? Many Orthodox theologians classify the saints in six categories: The Apostles, who were the first ones to spread the message of the Incarnation of the Word of God and of salvation through Christ. The Prophets, because they predicted and prophesied the coming of the Messiah. The Martyrs, for sacrificing their lives and fearlessly confessing Jesus Christ as the Son of God and the Savior of mankind. The Fathers and Hierarchs of the Church, who excelled in explaining and in defending, by word and deed, the Christian faith. The Monastics, who lived in the desert and dedicated themselves to spiritual exercise (askesis), reaching, as far as possible, perfection in Christ. The Just, those who lived in the world, leading exemplary lives as clergy or laity with their families, becoming examples for imitation in society. Each and every one among all these saints has his or her own calling and characteristics: they all fought the "good fight for the faith" (1 Tim. 6:12 and 2 Tim. 4:7). All of them applied in their lives the scriptural virtues of "justice, piety, fidelity, love, fortitude, and gentleness" (1 Tim. 6:11). THE CONCEPT OF THEOSIS The ultimate goal of the saint is to imitate God and live the life of deification (theosis). St. Maximos the Confessor (seventh century) writes that the saints are men who have reached theosis; they have avoided unnatural development of the soul, that is, sin, and tried to live the natural way of life (i.e., living according to created nature), turning and looking always towards God, thus achieving total unity with God through the Holy Spirit (On Theology, 7.73). It may be stated here that the Saints are first of all "friends" of God. Secondly, through their genuine piety and absolute obedience to God, they pleased Him and have therefore been "sanctified" both in soul and body, and subsequently glorified in this world. Third, they have been accepted in God's bosom after their passing from the world into eternal life. Fourth, many of them have been given special "grace" or "favor" to perform miracles either before their departure from this world or after. Fifth, they have been granted the special gift to pray and intercede for those still living in this world and fighting the "good fight" for the glory of God and their own perfection in Christ. This intercession springs from the fact that they also are part of the "Communion of Saints". They share prayers and good works with Christians on earth and there is a constant interaction and unity between the glorified saints in Heaven and Christians who still live in the world. |
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| 1. The sacred Tradition of our most holy Orthodox Church has never established any official ecclesiastical procedure for the recognition of Saints. 2. Initially, it was the common conscience of the pious People of God at the local level (that of the monastery, parish, village, city, province, or local Church) that would immediately, spontaneously, and unanimously accord honors to a reposed Christian with Icons, services, and festal celebrations, to which common conscience were known his or her holy manner of life and gift of boldness before God, as well as the miracles worked through his or her intercessions, whereby he or she was shown to be a protector and benefactor of, and consolation for, the Faithful. 3. This immediate recognition of the holiness of a particular Christian, without any special procedures and on the basis of local knowledge of his or her life, gradually spread, over the course of time, and entered into the universal life of the Church. 4. Right up to the Fall of Constantinople, the spontaneous honoring of the Saints at a local level occurred without the mediation of the Church authorities; whenever the authorities did intervene—and this was very rare, in any case—, such action was of a corroborative and proclamatory nature. 5. That is to say, the Holy Synod of a particular Church did not intervene in order to approve or reject the honor given to a Saint, but for the purpose of confirming (diapistosis) what was already existent and in effect—namely, the local knowledge of someones holiness—, proclaiming this in a solemn ceremony (diakeryxis) and entering his or her name in the list of Saints (eggraphe eis to Heortologion), so as to inform the universal Church of his or her sanctity and to further his or her celebration (katholike biosis). 6. The continuous maintenance of this tradition attests, in and of itself, that impugning or hindering the immediate and spontaneous according of honors to Saints revealed by God, before this is officially appointed by the Church authorities, is not a correct practice. It unquestionably constitutes an innovation, deriving, indeed, whether unconsciously or directly, from influences alien to the Church; namely, from Papism, the influence of which has been and, unfortunately, continues to be most pronounced chiefly in the Russian Church—especially with regard to the subject at hand, and specifically with regard to the rite or service for proclaiming a Saint [the service of canonization, to use the more common word, which is taken directly from Roman Catholicism; or Glorification, to use a more proper, but also not wholly accurate term—Trans.]. 7. On the basis of this more recent practice, the question of whether a Saint should be honored depends more, or even exclusively, on the findings of a committee, and the decisive criterion is a minute examination of a Saints life, and not that of the common conscience of the pious People, who alone have the power to grant immediate recognition to a Saint and to keep his veneration alive throughout the centuries. 8. In conclusion, and by way of rounding off this brief overview of the issue of the recognition of Saints, the following points should be made, so that the hazardous policy stemming from the aforementioned innovative practice might be avoided: a. Within the bosom of the Church there have lived persons richly endowed with the gifts of the Holy Spirit, but who have not been honored as Saints by the Faithful or promoted as such by the Church, although her conscience has always recognized them as outstanding members of the body ecclesiastic. b. It is God alone Who decides who among the outstanding and indisputably saved members of the Church is to be honored as a Saint. It is He Who will enrich a Saint with the gift of boldness in prayer and miracles after his repose, thereby revealing His servant, in an exceptionally special way, to be a protector and benefactor of, as well as consolation for, His People. c. The exceptional gifts of intercessory boldness and wonderworking after death, which are causally connected, constitute the unique and particular hallmarks of a Saint, which distinguish him from the other outstanding members of the Church. d. Ignoring or overlooking these essential hallmarks of sanctity leads to misunderstandings and excesses, the consequence of which is the adulteration of the Orthodox Churchs Festal Calendar. 9. Needless to say, the foregoing comment about the hallmarks of sanctity does not pertain to Martyrs and Confessors of the Faith, or to the theologians and Fathers of the Church. For clearly these Saints, merely by virtue of their extraordinary gifts of martyrdom, confession, and theological insight, have put forth a good witness at extremely crucial times, on the one hand, and, on the other hand, have averted the adulteration of salvific Truth, showing themselves to be Fathers and Œcumenical Teachers of the Church. |
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| Do the orthodox's havta go to some other man an git his blessins to be forgiven, to do penneance an the like as well? Do you need the preist guy to do this that an the other, er need his permission to crap an the like? |
| QUOTE (andiesmama @ Jul 25 2007, 12:49 PM) | ||
Great question! I'm curious about that as well. If true, why have to go through a priest to ask for forgiveness and do penance? When we're taught that all we have to do is confess our sins to God and He will forgive us. I don't think the Bible states we have to use an interpreter..... :dunno: |
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| QUESTION: If we can make confession to God without the priest, then why do we have confession with a priest present? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ANSWER: In the early Church, confession was public; that is, one confessed one's sins in the presence of the entire faith community. When this became impractical, it was the priest who "stood in" for the community, as its presiding officer and as its witness to the penitent's repentance. Further, while we can indeed confess directly to God -- even a casual reading of the daily prayers reveals that we should do this -- we often find that we need help and advice in overcoming the very things we have confessed. We do not confess "to" the priest; rather, we confess to God "in the presence of" the priest who, as the prayer before Confession clearly states, is God's "witness" and who, having witnessed our confession of sins offers pastoral advice on how we can better our lives and overcome the very things we can confess. Just as one would not attempt to diagnose, much less cure, one's own physical ailments, so too one should not attempt to diagnose, much less cure, one's own spiritual ailments. It is often the case that those who object to revealing their sins in the presence of a priest or to seek his advice have no qualms about revealing their sins to their neighbors, friends, psychiatrists, and so on, usually with the intention of obtaining advice -- advice that is not necessarily godly or spiritually profitable, or even just plain "good," for that matter. Many years ago, a woman cornered my wife at coffee hour and told her that she was having an affair. She asked my wife's advice. My wife advised her that perhaps she should speak to me about this. The women replied, "But he's a priest -- I couldn't tell him that!" This is somewhat akin to the person who finds a huge lump on his or her body, goes to the doctor, and then asks the receptionist to diagnose it. No doubt the receptionist would suggest that he or she have a seat and allow the doctor to look at it, only to find that the person with the huge lump replies, "But the lump's much, much to big for me to show to the doctor!" So, we confess in the presence of the priest to acknowledge that our sins, whether we wish to accept it or not, affect the entire faith community on the one hand, and that we cannot "heal ourselves" on the other. The priest is there to help us overcome those things for which we seek forgiveness, to give advice that a friend or neighbor might not be in a position to give, and to bear witness on behalf of the faith community, of which he is the spiritual father, that we have indeed repented and been forgiven by God. |
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| QUESTION: Can't I go to God, who already knows what I've done, and confess? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ANSWER: Yes, one can confess directly to God -- but refusing to confess in the presence of a priest implies that one can also be one's own spiritual physician. If this were so, then one wouldn't find that one is generally confessing the same sin, over and over again -- which not only implies that one is not making progress in overcoming one's sin and also implies, perhaps, that one really doesn't want help in overcoming one's sins in the first place! [There are indeed those who commit certain sins, ask God's forgiveness, feel that the slate is "clean," and then plan the next occasion upon which the same sin can once again be committed. This is not "confession" in any sense, and this does not generate forgiveness, precisely because there is no desire to "repent," or "change."] On the spiritual level, one who refuses to seek spiritual advice from one's father confessor is somewhat like the person who refuses to see a surgeon because he or she would rather perform his or her own brain surgery. While I suppose one could pull out a few knives and a can opener and attempt this, it is not likely that it will be a success! |
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| QUESTION: However, if someone has commited a sin they want nobody to know about except that person and God, then what's the problem with confessing only to God since he is the only one who can forgive sins. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ANSWER: By hiding what one has done, one commits another sin. Have you ever told a lie in order to get yourself out of a situation, only to find out that by telling the lie you are required to tell additonal lies -- and so on and so on and so on? Consider this: One day, when our daughter was four years old, I was taking a mid-afternoon nap on the couch. She came running into the living room in an agitated state, demanding that I give her a kleenex. [In the past, she had always gotten her own kleenex, so this was rather odd.] I told her to get her own kleenex, as she had done so many times in the past, but she insisted I give one to her. I did. She ran up the steps to her bedroom and slammed the door shut. A few minutes later, she woke me up, asking for a piece of scotch tape. Again, this was odd behavior, since she knew where the tape was and never hesitated to get it herself. So, once again, I got up and gave her the tape. And, once again, she bolted up the steps and slammed her bedroom door. Figuring that something was up -- the silence was deafening! -- I went up stairs, where I found the kleenex taped to the wall, about two feet from the floor. I asked her what this was all about; "nothing" was her reply. Since in my opinion "nothing" usually means "something," I removed the kleenex that was taped to the wall, as she watched in absolute horror. There, under the kleenex, was a crayon mark. " What's this?" I asked. "Nothing," she replied. But it wasn't "nothing." She knew quite well that coloring on the walls was "something" that was clearly not acceptable. She "sinned" by doing that which she had been told was not permitted -- coloring on the wall. And she tried to cover it up, hoping that I would not notice. Now, had she not asked for the kleenex and tape, I probably would have never noticed her colorful "sin" in the first place, as I rarely, if ever, inspected the walls for crayon marks. But by trying to cover up the crayon marks in the hope that I wouldn't notice them, she only made them more obvious, and committed a second sin in the process -- one by which she tried to deceive me. My point here is that when we refuse to confess what we have done, we commit a second sin -- a sin of pride, by which we are unwilling to acknowledge what we have done to another person, often justifying this by thinking, "Well, I didn't really hurt anyone." We also sin by thinking that we are "pulling the wool over" God's eyes, which we cannot do. He knows our hearts and He alone judges the sincerity of our repentance -- and a key element in genuine repentance is acknowledging to God and to others that we are indeed sinners. I assure you that there is no sin that would shock a priest out of his sensibilities; at the same time, should a priest in whose presence you choose to reveal even the most shocking sin in a spirit of true repentance reject you for doing so, consider it a blessing and find another confessor. But I don't know a priest who would shun one who genuinely repents and genuinely seeks the means by which even the most serious sin can be overcome and brought under control, and I know plenty of priests who would, in fact, applaud one who confesses openly, honestly, and with a true spirit of repentance. A saint of the Church once opined that the angels in heaven dance for joy when a sinner repents; believe me, the priests on earth do the same thing! So continue to ask God daily for forgiveness, but please do not overlook the need everyone has -- including priests! -- to seek guidance and direction in overcoming sin. And never forget that, if it true that God often heals the physically ill by guiding the hands of a surgeon, He also heals the spiritually ill by guiding the words and advice of a priest. |
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| as the prayer before Confession clearly states, is God's "witness" and who, having witnessed our confession of sins offers pastoral advice on how |
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| I read this the other day... an I know it's not goin to come out right, I want to say straight away, that I hold nuthin against the person, ie. String an Basil, but the ideals an 'religion' behind the beliefs an the like I have tremendous amounts of troubles wit. I can show you in this thread part of the problem. Out of like the first 5 posts in this thread alone, I seen three catholic bashins goin on. Ok I git that, Orthodox an catholic's are probly the two most primary rivals... but there in lies some of the trouble I have. Two frackin RELIGONS fightin wit each other on what?? Who is the FIRST church? Who is the OLDEST church?? I have huge HUGE problems wit the shear stupidity behind that. Le'me tell ya, for everones information, I don't give a rats mother frackin bum who has the braggin rights... because that's all it is, prideful braggin rights. I can not stand this crap of "oh look how pretty our new church buildin is" er any other stupid thin like that, it becomes worship of a man made thin an it's wrong! I can tell you this wit absoulte certainty. Not one stone will stand on top of another after this earth passes away. God will destroy all of it, an He can do it wit my blessin. It's not about who's the oldest for bragging purposes, it's about who's preserved the truth against error. Who has perserved the gospel of Christ against the false man-made additions or subtractions made by Rome and it's offshoots, away from the full deposit of faith delivered from Christ to the Church. Also God created the universe and said it is "good." He has no desire to destroy His creation, instead He sent Christ to redeem all of creation, not just us, from the affects of the fall. The fall affected the entire creation, and likewise Christ's redemption will not be complete until all of the universe is renewed. He isn't just interested in our souls, but in restoring everything back to proper order. Now I have HUGE problems wit ALOT of this other stuff that I consider shear non-sense. Thins like "veneration of saints" In my opinion it is WRONG WRONG WRONG! Both catholics an orthodox have taken jes ONE lil sentence out of the bible an made an entire thelogy out of it. In my opinion it is WRONG. Now here's some thins folks never wanna talk bout. The bible says that a day unto the Lord is a 1000 years an a 1000 years is unto a day to the Lord. What makes ANY of us think that those who have died are stuck on OUR time zone? What makes any of us think that they are NOT on God's time frame? Chronos versus kliros, I think it's called. Basically God and His Kingdom, of which the faithful who are asleep in Christ are all a part of right now, is like the eternal "now." There is not time space separation, like there is for us. They are present in the Kingdom of God which, as Christ declared, is here now, not some place we'll get to later if we are saved. We mystically participate in the kingdom now, although due to our sinfulness it's very hard for us to perceive here and now. He allows them to hear our prayers, so that love can be perfected in His children. Doesn't take one iota of love away from God. Puttin all of that aside for the moment, we come to the whole saint thin. I don't know what ya'lls bibles say to you, but my bible says that we are all saints, for those who are called by God. This bestowin of 'sainthood' is a crap thin that is not authorized by God, He never set up anythin at all bout that, the only thin He did was have disiples, an when Judas died, they added another disciple to the orginal 11. I don't actually know why they did that, an I don't really care, not one of them is any more er less man then any of us. How bout Paul for example? He was not named a disicple of the 12, but he's considered a saint. He was a follower of Christ, which means anyone who is a follower of Christ is a discple an also a saint. We are all saint in a sense, that is true. We affirm that. Some who have revealed man's full potential in Christ are honored as being better examples of our life in Christ than others, so we hold special love for them. We seek to follow their example, which is really a reflection of our potential to become truly redeemed in Christ. This is pleasing to God, as is affirmed by the many miracles performed by Him, not them, when we seek their help in times of trouble. Man wit thier own devices, thier own stupidity, has built these huge religions around thins that in my opinion are way way wrong. An it detracts from the work of the Lord, this nonsesne of prayin to a saint takes time away from Christ that could be spent wit Him instead of to a dead person that MAY er MAY NOT know we're even talkin to em. No, it affirms His truth, it doesn't detract from it. It reveals His power in the lives of those we honor. We don't honor them for themselves, but it's the power of God revealed in them that inspires us. They have voluntarily decreased, so that Christ could increase in their lives and shine through them more brilliantly than most. I realize the Mary ordeal is more prominate in catholic stuff, but even the orthodox place to much 'prasie' into a woman used by God. Tell me, does God use people today? What bout in the past when God did use people like Moses? Why aren't folks fallin head over heels for Moses? We do honor Moses also for his part in God's plan of salvation, but Mary's was quite extraordinary. He could have chosen any woman, but she was the one chosen. Mary was a sinner, she was born into sin jes like EVERONE of us was, she needed a savour in Christ jes like the rest of us. To say she was sumthin more then used by God is wrong. She was a willin vessel chosen by God to facilitate HIS plan, nuthin more. Yes, she was born like us all. We take exception to the Roman Catholic idea that she was born any differently than the rest of us. We don't believe that, never have. John the baptise, was used by God importantly, so was his mother, yet why isn't there a big to do wit him an his mother? I mean, they were sumthin like 3 months apart in age? why not have a huge ordeal wit thiem as well? He is honored as the prophet and forerunner of Christ, which is kind of a big deal. We love him very much for his part in God's plan. Tradition holds that Christ couldn't promise a seat at His right hand to the other apostles because it was already taken by John the Baptist. Now admittedly, I do not know as much bout the Orthodox RELIGION, not faith, RELIGION as I do bout catholics. Do the orthodox's havta go to some other man an git his blessins to be forgiven, to do penneance an the like as well? Do you need the preist guy to do this that an the other, er need his permission to crap an the like? We confess standing beside a priest not to a priest. Our prayer for forgiveness is directed to God alone, Who alone can forgive our sins, but the priest acts as a shepherd to counsel us and give some accountability for our sins. Jesus came to set men free, not to enslave them in a bunch more of the same stinkin religion crap that was runnin rampat at the time of Christ. He didn't set us free in order for us to enslave ourselves to our own self-satifying forms of worship, that are designed to please and excite us, rather than require self-denial and submission to Christ. Having fun is easy, even non-believers do that with no problem, but dying to ourselves and finding greater spiritual joy by voluntarily yeilding our will to Christ is where the deepest expression and joy of life in Christ can be found. |