Can EVERYONE go to Heaven or are there Chosen Elect? :wall:

For as many as are called.

Not much of an answer huh? Well, I know bout the doctrines bout only certain ones who are born are goin to heaven because they were specifically choosen before thier birth etc etc etc. Ok, yes, God bein God knows who will an won't go to heaven even before thier born, God is God, but I look at it more like this, God knows who will choose Him an who won't. That doesn't brin any of the predetermination stuff into it, so what? God knows, big deal. It's still our choice to either choose Christ er reject Him.

So yes everone "could" go to heaven, of those who choose Christ. I prefer to not even worry bout that sorta thin, because, it would add yet another layer for us to over come in order to witness to folks, cause we could start thinkin, oh well that one isn't one of the choosen ones so there's no need to witness to them bout Christ, well that's a crok the devil throws up at us, God calls all of us, it's a matter of who will hear Him.

I think everyone can go to Heaven......accept that Jesus died on the cross for your sins.....confess your sins and live as best you can the way God commands.

Now that I read it, doesn't make alot of sense..........I need more :coffee:

Oooh! Meat!!!

Quick answer: Regardless if there are some who are condemned from teh very beginning, it is not our lot to let them burn.

Long answer:

John 5:21
Luke 14:15-24
John 6:43-47
Isaiah 55:1

"All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away." - John 6:37, NIV

There are chosen elect. There are stumbling blocks put in our way. There are those who are here to test our faithfulness. Who are the chosen elect? Is God completely sovereign? If so, why would He allow some of those whom He loves to suffer eternal torment and destruction in the lake of fire?

The paradox of free-will and God's sovereignty is one of the mysteries of faith. We are not to understand it. Jesus makes what appears to be opposing statements in the verses mentioned above. In one, He says that only those whom the Father calls can He save. In another, He says that all who come to Him will be saved. Do we truly have a choice?

In John 6:44, Jesus tells us that only if the Father sends people can they be saved. Does that mean there are people who are doomed from birth? Isaiah 55:1 makes it appear otherwise. Isaiah says, "Come, all who are thirsty". Perhaps only those who thirst for more are called by God. So, are those who are not thirsty not called? Are they not eligible for salvation?

In my prison ministry, I've discussed with some of the guys about the hole in their lives that they are trying to fill with drugs, the adrenaline-rush from crime, sex, etc. I've come to the conclusion, as many evangelicals have, that the hole is shaped like Jesus. Only a "Jesus-shaped peg" will fill that hole properly. These guys are thirsty.

The rest is my own opinion, based on rambling thoughts - this is not scripture.

We all know that darkness is the absence of light. We all know that cold is the absence of heat. Only heat and light are actual energies that we can sense. The lack of these energies are sensed as cold and darkness. Perhaps eternity, as well, is merely the absence of time. Without the limitations of time, all of history and future is present at this moment, and this moment never ends.

If, for God, there is no time (a thousand years is like a day), then He is able to see everything that happens from Creation to the end of the world. Having willingly surrendered His sovereignty in order to prove a point to a rebellious angel (called Satan), He watches His Creation - which He loves - to see who is willing to fight for Him. He's already won the battle, but Satan is taking all the parting-shots he can on his way down.

Satan has lost his right to Eternity. Satan is bound by time, where God is not. But God is playing fair. Satan chose to renounce his place with the Father when he (and 1/3 of the angels) rebelled against Him. God said, "I will make a being, lower than the angels (Psalm 8:4-5) who will choose me over you. You are allowed to do anything you want (Job 1) to keep them from me. But anyone who chooses Me over you is mine forever."

Satan took the bet and, well, we saw what happened in the Garden. Satan thought sure he had us then. Then he had Cain kill Abel, and there was no hope left for humankind. But, 4000 years later, Jesus Christ claimed victory over Satan and allowed us all to live in His freedom. Satan is still trying to take as many of us as he can, and it is our job to make sure he doesn't succeed.

The Book of Life, since it's not trapped by time, can be edited and re-written (from our perspective). God knows how it will end, and has written the names because He sees how it will turn out.

We are bound by time. We cannot see the end. We do not know how it will all turn out. We are tasked with bringing the :quote: lost :quote: into Christ's fold. We are commanded (in the Great Commission) to do so. Therefore, regardless if there are some who are condemned from teh very beginning, it is not our lot to let them burn.

:blink: awesome post Clay!! :thumbsup:

Awesome post, Pastor Clay! :thumbsup:

copycat............ :P

OK. So basically you're saying EVERYONE has the option and God doesn't really CHOOSE who will/won't go to heaven but he already KNOWS who will accept/deny Him.
I'm struggling with Romans 9

I understand the struggle. It appears, as I said, to contradict with what I posted.

Here is my understanding of what Paul wrote, and this dovetails with something that I put in my earlier post then forgot to elaborate on:

God wanted to force his chosen people to their knees. He has a habit of removing everything one depends on, so they have to depend on Him. Through slavery in Egypt, God achieved several goals:

• His people were forced to depend on Him for release - not their own abilities.
• He was able to show the world a tiny portion of His Almighty Power.
• He proved to the Egyptians that their false gods were powerless against Him, the One, True God.

We humans are prideful. Again, it's got something to do with the fall. Like Satan himself, we want to be able to do everything our own way and say to God, "Thank you for the offer of help, but we can manage on our own right now." So, God can either interfere with our free will individually and change our mindset to automatically, without hesitation, lean on Him for everything. Or, He can interfere with one person's free will and change an entire nation, possibly even two. He did such with Pharaoh.

By hardening Pharaoh's heart, God was able to demonstrate to Israel that they were powerless without him. God had to make the Israelites appreciate what He was about to do when He freed them from slavery.

Each of the plagues addressed an Egyptian deity - I forget which plague addressed which god - and showed how impotent these gods were against the One, True God. The plagues were designed to prove the "almightiness" of God (if I can invent a word here).

Notice, when you read through Exodus, it says, "Pharaoh hardened his heart" or "Pharaoh's heart was unyielding [hard]" for the first five plagues. The Lord had no part in hardening Pharaoh's heart through the first five plagues. I've heard teachers say that Pharaoh had a chance during those first five to repent and change his ways. But, he did not. So, the Lord took matters into His own hands and hardened Pharaoh's heart for the next plague (boils - Exodus 9:12).

Still, God gave Pharaoh another chance. After the plague of hail, Exodus 9:34 says "When Pharaoh saw that the rain and hail and thunder had stopped, he sinned again: He and his officials hardened their hearts." In Chapter 10, the Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart twice (locusts and darkness). I like the line in Exodus 10:34: "Pharaoh said to Moses, "Get out of my sight! Make sure you do not appear before me again! The day you see my face you will die."" After a plague of darkness, Pharaoh doesn't want to see.

Finally, after so many chances, God sends the plague on the firstborn. Exodus 11:9, "The LORD had said to Moses, "Pharaoh will refuse to listen to you—so that my wonders may be multiplied in Egypt."" God had foreseen that Pharaoh wouldn't work with Him, so He took advantage of the situation to show His glory and wonders.

The Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart one last time (Exodus 14:8). He then chased Israel through the Red Sea and lost an entire army.

I went into great length here to show that not all the 'hard-heartedness' was the Lord's doing. Pharaoh did his own share of it, and it cost him dearly. But the Lord did give him several chances to make it right. Was Pharaoh completely blameless? I don't think so. God gave him plenty of opportunity to change his wicked ways and repent. He chose not to do so. God was able to foresee what Pharaoh would do, and used it to His advantage.

Ironically, after all this (and manna, and water from a rock, and quail) the Israelites still turned their backs on God.

Ah, that makes sense!!

**do we have a little lightbulb smilie??** :)

I differ in my understanding of the scripture on this. I believe God chooses us not us choosing him. The verses on election do not say, 'God knew', they say 'God chose'.

And other scripture seems to say the opposite. It is a common occurence in our understanding, or lack of understanding of God, to note that he holds two seemingly opposing concepts in his hands simultaneously. Like justice and mercy.

I really would like to give a better response on how I currently understand this subject but it is too late here in the land of Aus and I'm really tired. I will come back to it in the next day or two. It takes a lot of thought to even begin to think about getting your head around this one and the 'Calvin' and 'Armenian' camps still haven't sorted it out :dunno: so I would love to put our heads together on this a bit more.

Back later. It's time for me to :snooze: now

So he hardened Pharoahs heart - that gave him no chance to accept what was right.
I'm still struggling with this. I heard a speaker (Kay ARthur) answer a mom, Jane, regarding Jane's daughter who died from cancer. Kay answered saying if she believed in Jesus ans accepted HIM as her Savior than she's in Heaven celebrating. The separation is hard for us but she's having fun. She continued though saying "if she wasn't a Christian, she never would have been and that's the end of that". And it struck me wierd.
IF there are a chosen elect few, WHY must we preach the word? What about my kiddo's? What if they aren't "chosen"...aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaggggggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh :bonk: :bonk: :bonk:

faulty doctrine and self interpretation....causes nasty mess and confusion amongst the Christians huh???? And guess who the author of confusion is? He has been successful thus far in his plan to divide and conquer...

I'm not getting into any religious discussions. I don't have the energy or motivation.

:wave:

I would often wonder and worry about that myself. It would seem to be cruel to allow a child who was never one of the "elect" to be born to a devoted Christian.

Ah...but everyone has the choice. Even if they are born into a Christian family it's up to the individual to make the choice...