okay, first of all i want to say that i love you both and i hope the best for your relationship.

second....it's time SOMEONE is blunt with you. we have been running circles around and around saying the same things over and over. whether you choose to listen and work it out is completely up to YOU. we can't force you to do anything.

when andy and i went through our rough road i learned something. i learned about forgiveness and what that means....

if we follow biblical examples of forgiveness, then it means that there ARE NO GRUDGES. we take the apology and then we move on as if NOTHING HAPPENED. do we forget it?? NO! our human minds won't allow us to. but do we act differently?? YES! we act NORMAL. sometimes by forcing our actions in one direction, our heart will soon follow. does that make sense?? TRY IT. BOTH OF YOU.

string, i am going to get real with you...i hear you complain a lot and tell us what you have given in on and what you have sacrificed. but to truly sacrifice means that you will give at the expense of yourself. it doesn't mean that you give and then expect ANYTHING back. yeah...it can freakin' suck! believe me, i know! i dealt with NINE YEARS of living with a porn addict. i sacrificed too. i know this isn't what you are dealing with, but the feelings are similar.

"WHY DO I HAVE TO GIVE WHEN HE'S THE JERK NOT DOING ......???"

get over YOURSELF. i mean that in a loving way, really i do. if you are done, then BE DONE. it's not fair to anyone to fart around and play games online telling your most intimate issues to the world and then to string him along. this is honestly, in my opinion, what seems to be going on at this point. you have got to stop. make a choice. either work it, or leave it. period. i hope and pray that you choose to work it. i believe in my heart that in the end God will bless you for that. but it's not up to me.....it's YOUR decision. NONE of us have the answers for you.

i know this comes off harsh...it is really not suppose to sound that way at all. but it has to be said. no one else will say this outloud, so i guess i'll be the butt to do it :) that's all i'll say again about this subject. i've said what god has told me to share...i'm done preaching now :thanks: (and i'm sure you are thankful that i'm shutting up now too!!lol)

That is just the thing I am dealing with--I know that the "right thing to do" is to work on this marrigae and make everything better, but at this time I just don't want to. BUT those damn expectations are pressuring me to do this do that do what is right force love to start happening force your heart to be happy and if its not don't let anyone know..puton the smile and the little white apron and serve brownies...

String - YOu have two choices.....

1) Go to a counselor. Not your priest.....a counselor. Get help.

2) Walk out. Leave. Be done with it.

End of story. Those are the choices.

Basil - you have two choices too....
1) Be a man and go to counseling. Be a man & and love your wife "as Christ loved the church". Not controlling her.....

2) Watch her walk - and our kids walk with her.

Those are the choice gang - as I see it.

If neither of you are willing to do step 1 - then it's over. Walk. Call it quits because it WILL NOT get better without help.

Not a big fan of brownies, but thanks for the effort. I don't want you to fake emotions, just be willing to work on things, as you had been before your ex started tempting your emotions to him. You should have guarded yourself against falling back in love with someone you'd written off to your past. Compared to how things have been, I'm sure things were better back then, when everything was simplier, but can't you see you feelings can be clouded by current turmoil?

Basil

Why does it have to be "little white apron and serve brownies"?

It seems as if this whole relationship has been centered around "wife submit to husband' - but I think it's gone a bit far. I don't think God had in mind for the wife to sit at home and wait hand & foot on the hubby - to be miserable - and to have the man "lord over" the wife. That isn't God's intent.

String- if that is how you view you should be - then you will never make it. That IS NOT how it should be.

Like what kind of counsellor? Well I probably would if it weren't for the tiny little fact that we can barely pay the bills much less pay a counsellor......

Hell no I don't think that is how ti should be. What I am trying to say is that I have to put on a fake smile and pretend to be happy and in love and just do what evceryone is expecting me to do.......But I really would like some brownies....

This is what I was trying to say.....

and all I was trying to say.....


Work on it or walk from it the only ones that can make the choice is you guys.

I'll not judge either way I'll just be thankful that you guys are on your road to healing.

I think that is part of the problem. You've been putting on the fake smile and not being honest with Basil or yourself. That is where the counselor comes in - they would be able to sit down with you OR the both of you and start the dialogue.

I think Chitty would be the best to answer what kind of counselor & speak to the cost.

Putting on a fake smile just puts a bandaid on a broken leg sure it looks like it's all better but you try to walk another five feet and your leg is goming out from under you, do it enough times and the leg has to be taken.

Be real

That is the only way to heal

Granted Misty and I haven't been maried as long as you guys, prolly not as long as anyone here on the board but when we have issues we mask it to family and friends until we can have time to go over it together and then all masks are off all fake smiles put away.

You guys have a major retooling of your relationship, not a minor tweak.

If you're pissed at each other pack the kids of to grammas and yell at each other until you can talk again.

That's what we try to do... sometimes we forget to pack the kids off so they don't have to witness the fight.

We hammer out the issue at hand then we work on the next one.

I'll see if Zach wants to bake some brownies if so I'll have him bake a batch and I'll send them to you guys so you can talk this over over brownies.....

after andy and i had major issues, we found that we could not communicate effectively on our own. we absolutely needed a third party in the room with us to help us keep things at an adult level. we tend to yell, throw, kick, scream, whatever if we aren't careful.

we used a counselor as a mediator. her job was not to come up with solutions FOR us. but to help guide us in our communication skills so that we could come up with our own solutions TOGETHER. it was a HUGE help!

you don't even have to pay a counselor to have a mediator present. it can be a neighbor, a friend, a parent, etc. but whoever it is, they MUST stay in the middle of the fence. NO TAKING SIDES. they are not there to tell you who is right and who is wrong. they are there to help guide you to a solution that the two of you come up with on your own. they are also there to make sure no name calling, throwing, etc. is done.

it worked wonders for us!!!! maybe you guys should think about this. it's FREE too...which is always a plus!!!

I think we are pretty good at talking without yelling. It has gotten better over time. I think that our priest will help out in this area..

I am thinking of taking a few days off from life. I want to leave for a bit to do some thinking. I am sure we can arrange one of the grandparents to watch the kids for a day or two, but I really need some alone time...

.
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Gutter WAS a good bro.

:smack:

I want to go to a counsellor who seemed to help a little a few years ago, but I don't think String is motivated to go now, because in her heart she really doesn't want to save the marriage right now. She wants out. She's let her emotions form an attachment outside the marriage-- that seems like a greener pasture. I can't even be bitter about her feeling that way because I'm wearing a sign on my back that says "DUMBASS." I'm the fool who has hurt her. I'm not wallowing in pity--I'm still standing up to fight for us. I just pray she'll see through the darkness of the present moment to see God's purpose for us having been brought together in the first place. She was vulnerable then, I took her in, and although I failed to treat her she deserves, she was taken away from some destructive things. Now she's facing other "demons" which have followed her all these year. God is healing her--our marriage has been on of the means. I'm being remolded now too. This hurts, but has been good for us.

Basil

ALONE TIME IS OKAY AS LONG AS IT IS JUST THAT....ALONE TIME. THAT MEANS NO CONTACT WITH OUTSIDE SOURCES OF ANY KIND....INCLUDING THE EX. IT IS A GREAT WAY TO LISTEN TO GOD AND TO FIND YOUR INNER THOUGHTS AGAIN. WHEN YOU HEAR EVERYONE ELSE SPEAKING FOR YOU, I KNOW THAT SOMETIMES YOU CAN'T EVEN HEAR WHAT YOU FEEL FOR YOURSELF! I LIKE TO HIT TARGET ONCE IN A WHILE. NOT TO SHOP, BUT TO BUY A COOKIE AND A POP AND TO CHILL OUT AND "FIND MY HEAD" AGAIN, AS I SAY.

MAYBE THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT YOU NEED. IF IT IS, GO FOR IT. BUT DON'T TALK YOURSELF TO DEATH. LISTEN TO YOURSELF AND LISTEN TO GOD. LISTEN LISTEN LISTEN.....AND SLEEP TOO :)

I'LL BE PRAYING FOR YOU.

Priests are good counselors. I believe Orthodox priests are allowed to marry, so they have some of the same experiences as the rest of us. In fact, in some of the branches of Christianity, pastors/priests are required to be counselors first then preachers second.

The word pastor comes from the latin word pastorem which is translated, literally, as shepherd. In our tradition, the church elders have a 'flock'. The members of each elder's flock can come to them for counseling. The group of elders is referred to as a 'pastoral council' and, as of this year, will include women.

Shepherds take care of every need of the sheep. Our pastors/priests are there for the same reason.

Thanks for clarifying. I guess I assumed that most people knew that... :doh:

If you guys are motivated to go to a counsenlor.... is there a fairly large church in your area? Contact the office and ask for references. Most of the time you can call and find out if there are counselors with sliding fees or even interns that need to get their hours and are willing to treat for little to no cost.

The alone time thing.... I remember feeling the same way 3 1/2 years ago. It is a very dangerous place to be. Better to go to a trusted (Godly) friends house that will offer you you some quiet space at the same time some accountability. If you don't feel that you have that kind of friendship with anyone, typically a phone call to you own church office with a bit of information will yeild a likely person to fill the need. That is what a church is for.... building up it's community.

Check out "When bad things happen to good marriages" by Les and Leslie Parrot. It is a good resource for figuring out how things like our expectations and busyness can damage the fragile balance that is marriage.

How could being alone for a bit be dangerous??

Sorry it took so long for me to get back to you....

On being alone....

1) There is some sense of freedom from all of the obligations of our families, homes, jobs etc. not that this is a bad thing, but when a person is feeling dissatisfied with their situation, getting this sense of being able to leave it all behind can be addicting and lead us to make decisions that we might regret.

2) Being alone when feeling attracted to someone other than our spouse... Alone... mind starts thinking of what ifs? What if I was single? What if I had married someone else? What if my spouse dropped dead? Who would I marry? How would my life be different? I am not happy now, who could I be happy with? Then, because we are alone, we can take the next step just to see what it might be like to just talk or hang out with someone else... often times at this point it is too late to turn back. Even if things don't ever get to this point, the spouse that is home endures the torture of wondering and fearing what might be happening. This is especially true when there have been incidences of trust being broken.

3) Our primary human relationship is to be with our spouse (whatever our reasons for marrying them, this is the person with whom we are to cultivate intimacy), often "alone-ness" drives a wedge between the two instead of bringing them together.


Just a few thoughts.

I do think that this may be a bit extreme..

And these thought don't happen if you are stuck to your spouses side 24/7??

I still say this is a bit extreme.

I need time away so that I can work through the emotional crap that I am going through. I cannot do it with the kids hanging off my eyelashes and my husband hovering around all the time. I need time to be alone and think and cry and do whatever I need to do to work through this.

I say that your proposed possibilities are extreme because ina day or two awy fromthe family, I'd have to be some kind of heartless hoochie to go away to think and contemplate, but end up seeking out a total stranger to "not be alone" with...

I want to be there to support String as she works through this, and I know she needs some space to think things through, but my fear is that her time alone will be spent adding up everything she doesn't like about our marriage, meanwhile imagining how much better life would have been with the other guy.

I've made many mistakes, so there's plenty for her to be unhappy with, although I'm earnestly trying to face my demons to never be so selfish and hurtful again--and I think she would acknowledge that things had been improving between us as I began to take my commitment to Christ more seriously over the past several years, but she still has many legitimate hurts, which make it impossible for her to love me openly without emotional reservations. With all these hurts, I'm just afraid that she will conclude the most immediately fulfilling thing to do would be to leave and perhaps eventually be with the other guy.

I think that I'm definitely part of the problem, but not all of the problem. She's suffered many hurts in her earlier life, which has made finding happiness an uphill battle. I think we could be happy, if she chooses to stick it out and actually work to be happy, rather than passively hoping that it will just happen. Marriage requires, work, compromise, negotiation, and a lot of patience, which I pray she will have. Her patience is worn very thin, and I think the new acceptance of the option of leaving, makes it even harder for her to endure the work needed to save our marriage and family.

Even when I was unhappy, I never considered leaving an option--I made a lifelong commitment, which I take very seriously. That sometimes means staying when you don't want to, which can feel like being trapped, if that's your frame of mind, but we must renew our minds, so that we don't chase after those things which may be immediately satisfying, but are really empty, selfish desires, not born out of a pure heart, but a selfish hunger for pleasing oneself, regardless of who it hurts. That's not true love. True love overcomes a multitude of sins, isn't selfish, makes one willing to lay their life down for others, etc. I've failed to show this kind of love to String, but I'm working hard to let the love I've held hidden, to a great extent, in my heart, because of fear, to come out, to lift String up and honor her as a beautiful, inside and out, child of God. It seems clear to me that God hates divorce and would will that we do everything to work through our past hurts and disappointments to stay together.

I'm afraid the aloneness could further drive a wedge between us. I want her to have time to think about stuff, but I don't want to let further emotional distance slip in and make reconciliation harder. We've been more physically affectionate than normal since this came out, which I think is a little comforting, hopefully for both of us as we hurt. Thanks for your continued prayers.

Basil

What then am I to do?!?!?!? Stay strapped to your side so that I cannot ever have a moment to think on my own?? So that you can keep and eye on me and make sure I am with you at all times and never have too much free time to start thinking?????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I am a human being and I have the right to take time to myself if I so desire. So you really think that keeping me from spending time alone will keep me from making the choices and decisions you have suggested in your post????

You didn't quote the part where I said I acknowledge you need space to think things through. I realize this. It's scary, but I know you need it. I was just expressing my feelings, so please don't take offense. Can you imagine, why I might feel that way? I am trying to be aware and sensitive to how you're feeling, but I must be given the same courtesy. Just listen sometimes--I may say things that you don't want to hear, but I really am not trying to make your decisions for you, just express what I'm feeling and hope for. I know you are a human being, with the right to make decisions for yourself. I'm just emotionally vulnerable, which really is scary--I dread more pain. I wish I could just take you, and make the decisions for both of us, in this area, so that I could stop feeling so sad and on edge, but I know I can't do that.

I love you,

Basil

I cannot relenquish that control back to you. You've been making my decisions for nearly 7 years and I was dying. It feels very trapping to hear you say that you'd like to make the decisions for both of us and that you don't wnt me to spend any time alone...

I thought you understood that all this has made it nearly impossible to feel or be affectionate at all. I mnean before this came down, it was hard for me anyway because of the state of our relationship, but now it is even harder..I thought you knew this?? :dunno:
I am glad you at least are feeling comforted...I am thinking that perhaps right now you need more comforting than I...

I say "X," you hear "Y." I said on some level, I wish I could just take you in my arms and make it all better, making the decision to save our marriage for both of us. I also clearly said, that can't happen. Do you see any pattern in my statements being taken a certain way by you? You jump to what bothers you in my post, rather than listening to the full statement, which may show more awareness of your feelings than you think I have. :bonk: Maybe we just need to take some time to think, and talk less for the day.

Also, as far as our intimacy, I don't know how you can be physically intimate without at least feeling some closeness. We can't judge everything by how intimate we feel, since moods, stress, etc. can affect that, but we've shared some affection, which seems more genuine than some of what you're saying. If you felt repelled to the degree that you're stating, then I can't imagine you being able embrace and be close and responsive in the ways you have, even if you feel pressure to do so, if you don't feel at least a little affection toward me.

Basil

You both have valid points, and I think you're both saying the same thing but with different words.

Some people deal with things in different ways....String's like me in that if I'm dealing with some tough stuff I need time A-L-O-N-E...that means without Ty, Andie or our dog.

It's never been as intense as what String's going through, my alone times consist of me going out for a couple hours to the mall or beach or something, or even locking myself in the bathroom for an hour long bubble bath.

If String needs time alone (a day or two, even) to think & cry & work through some stuff, then that's what she should do...

IMHO, for what it's worth.... B)

Thanks AM--I'm glad someone understands..Funnygirl seems to think it is a bad and dangerous idea, but I can't see how it could be at all. I haven't been able to arrane it and I don't know when I can, moat of our weekends in October are full and it has to be on a weekend..So....we'll see when time becomes available....

What Andiesmama said. My alone times involve going to Padre Island - there's a stretch of beach down there that's completely desolate (where hurricane Bret hit a few years back) and it's only me and the surf and the seagulls and whatever it was running through the grass on the dunes... :blink:

Time alone is wonderful, and allows one to actually get one-on-one with God. I require at least a couple of hours every week, and about two days a year. The two days is when I go to Padre Island.

I want to take time alone, I just have never had it in my entire life and I don't know what I'd do with myself. I don't know how to do it :dunno:

....come visit me.... B)

Here's the best way to do it:
Get a cabin in the mountains. Yes, Oklahoma has real mountains. Check out http://www.silvercreekcabins.com/ for an example. Make sure your cabin is secluded - no neighbors close by. Once you secure your cabin, take enough food for the time you're there. Make sure you have your Bible and a pad of paper for taking notes. Because you want complete seclusion, do this during the week. Rates are lower, and there will be fewer people.

When you arrive, unplug the TV and telephone (if present). If it's cool enough, light a fire in the fireplace. During the day, retire yourself in God's Word on the porch swing or on a log in the forest or on a lake shore or by a babbling creek or... you get the idea. You want nothing between God and you except for His creation. No cars, no radio, no TV, no kids, no other people - zip, nada, zilch! Just God and you!

At night, immerse yourself in prayer. Focus everything you have on God and His Word in your life. Meditate on His word. Find a passage that helps create this meditative atmosphere - maybe something from the Psalms. Remember that prayer is not just you talking to God, it's also listening for His answer. He will answer, if you strive to hear it. Elijah could not hear God in the thunderstorm or earthquake - it was a still, small voice. Listen for His answer.

When your time is up and you have to head home, spend some time thanking God for all He's done in your life. Thank Him for the trials. Thank Him for the opportunity you have to raise young children and teach them about Him. Thank Him for the time you had alone with Him, and ask that He help you keep the peace that you've found.

When you get back home, arrive with anticipation for a newfound relationship with your family, not dreading the old one. Look forward to changes but realize that they take time to develop. And remember the time you had with God last weekend. Push this memory into your current circumstances so you can enjoy peace, even in the harried life of every day.

That'll be $50, please.

Thanks Clay--I'll have to sell some stuff on half.com or Ebay to get the $50, so you'll have to be patient...

Hey, I'm not the one that has to be patient. All I have to do is :pray: and I'm doing that already. :)

You go girl! :booyah:

This sounds great but for me and my wife we work better if we go and do this kind of thing together. Even if we are driving each other nuts. We're one flesh- one person now. We each haved to concentrate on our own relationship with God but we should be supported by our spouse the whole way. We really try and do as much together as possible- she is my best friend and I love being with her. She puts up with my crap and loves me anyway. Try having some fun together, start dating again. Flirt like you used to. The other day after we were watching UFC (she hates it but loves me so she watches) she was getting ready for bed and I decided that we needed to have a UFC bought right in our bed room. I attacked her and we were wrestling around laughing and trying to get the other to tap out- it was just funny and ridiculous all at the same time. It cost us nothing. It was just fun! Take time to have fun with your wife! Flirt like you were in junior high- poke her in the boobs slyly in public, snap her with a towel, slap her but when she gets up off of the couch! Have fun with it!

Sounds all nice and peachy seige, but what if she's (I'm) just not receptive to that type of behavior right now? There is a lot of hurt in both of us now for different reasons. That type of behavior would only annoy me where I am right now emotionally...

Mutual retreats work quite well, also. But at this point in time, String really needs time away from everybody. It's something she hasn't had at all in 6+ years of marriage. I recognize the symptoms. I've been there myself. Solitude with God is a good thing, whether your married or not. Husbands and wives need to be able to grant this time alone, and be trusting enough to let it happen.