So if I am not a Christian anymore, I guess I shouldn't post here anymore.... this being a Christian forum and all. That stinks. You guys need to have a non Christian section for those completely disgusted with Christianity.

So... would you say then that you're "boycotting" Christianity? :|

I'll join you. I'm still a Christian, but I'm experiencing severe confusion...

:eyebrows: You're funny.... but no. If I were boycotting I wouldn't be fraternizing with the enemy! Bringing business! And yet, I continue to post there.... and here... and have been for some time while feeling a bit like "sleeping with the enemy"

I wish it were that simple. Not only do I have severe doctrinal issues with the whole thing that I have been trying to work out.... I also have the, wow I can't believe someone wants to be a Christian, but not moral.... issue.

Yes, that's how it is, or has been, or something. Severe confusion.

What's your alternative, if not Christian?

agnostic

Are you having issues with religion and people? Because that's not Christianity, which by definition would make you a follower of Christ and should seperate you from religion and people.

:unsure:

Well.... its a long story. One thing, Last night I was watching the History Channel.... about the Bible history.... was anyone watching that? Well that was sort of the final straw. I was like.... say what? Ummm no. The Bible is not a good guidebook for life, it seems. How can one be a follower of Christ and believe the Bible is not only fallible, but sometimes an immoral book?

This is true.

The institution of Christ's love is always and forever pure.

The people may be corrupt, but Christ is not.

I know that you can see beyond this and realize that immoral Christians and whatnot are not a reason for you to claim yourself as agnostic.

Jesus loves you. He told me Himself. :grin:

:haha: Okay.... so that's funny. You know, its not just the people.... although the people are poopy sometimes too.

There are people of integrity in every religion.

its not about the people... its the doctrine too.... although i do have to say the idea that someone can throw out an expletive and then go on another thread and tell me what the Bible says about how I should be living as a person.... well thats just too much for me to respect.

Are you irritated with Christianity or Religion? There's a difference I've found.

Jesus hated religion. Read Matthew 23 for some insight. He pronounced seven woes on the religious folk of His day- the Pharisees. Yet, He is the model of what we are supposed to be. He defines Christianity - not people who are in these buildings we call churches.

I've been deeply involved in a unity discussion on another site. Funny thing is the folks arguing are members of what was the same demonination 100 years ago. The 'conservative' hold-outs are so proud of what they believe that they won't accept the slightest possibility that a different opinion may be even slightly right. They have given the Body of Christ a bad name to the outside.

We are viewed as hypocrites by people like my brother-in-law and my drinking buddy from high school. They want nothing to do with us.

FHL is (I hope!) a demonstration of unity. I'm billing it as such when I'm out and about.

If you must forsake the assembly, and I hope you don't, follow Raspy's lead and don't abandon the faith. Worship at home or in small groups with whom you get along.

You should fast.

Take all these things straight to the cross and discuss them with God. I think our views get distorted out in the world (internet, tv, news...whatever). Get your answers from the One who is the same yesterday, today and always. Maybe go on a forum fast for a couple of days too, just so you don't get upset with what you hear on that other site.

If this is something you decide to do, let us know. Let us pray you through this. OK? We'll stand in agreement with you.

There's no doctrine involved in saying, "Jesus, I love you. Watch over me and protect me. I will do all that I can to make you proud."

That's my current problem as well...
My only solution seems to be a more liberal way of viewing the Bible, which goes against what I've been taught, so I'm still digesting that possibility.

I like the assembly, actually. I like my church. Socially its something I feel comfortable with. I guess I explain badly. Its doctrinal issues..... it was just a people issue that happened to let the cat out of the bag.

Right, but then to most Christians you aren't a Christian anyway. So why bother?

"Christians" stopped surprising me a long time ago.


Hey, here's a good one. My husband is leaving an AA meeting at a local church. He passes a member of the church's choir while walking through the sanctuary. My DH smiles, and says hello, and they guy actually looked at him and said "You know, because of you F-ing AA people I had to park all the way in the back of the parking lot."

Now, you have to hope the guy was having a bad day. But we all know that this isn't always the case. Some people are just Sunday Christians. Look, we're human. We're not perfect, just forgiven.

I was also confused by church doctrine...geez probably my whole life. When I asked questions, I was told to just shut up and listen. I left the Catholic church after I heard my priest tell my SIL to leave my brother because he wouldn't move to FL when she wanted to. I almost fell over. He told her she should do what she needed to do. Hello? Was God even in this equation?!

Religion is Satan's greatest tool against Christians. It's been used to divide us and drive us from our one purpose for 2,000 years.

Yeah... there's that.... and then there's the whole idea that all members of other religions are going to hell. So if you are born in Saudi Arabia and only hear of Islam.... you go to hell. I just can't buy that anymore. I used to argue for it, but not anymore. I'm thinking all religions have the same end result... in their own way, man's attempt to figure out the world. Not very Christian, now is it? :doh:

Heh, who cares what they think? B) Origen, who practically established the New Testament canon, would not have been considered a Christian by them. He considered ultra-literal interpretation to be idolatry of the text.

wow, this came out of the blue for me....I don't know what to say but that I hope you won't let a few people turn you away from Christianity....

I'm here if you need to talk....:pray:

Is the Bible fallible? How so? Perhaps some of the modern translations are inconsistent with each other, but the Word itself is, IMHO, infallible.

Don't trust a secular source to tell you the Word of God. Many of them have their own agenda to advance, and it is usually there to try and silence Christians.

I was watching a program on Discovery one night about stigmata - wounds miraculously developing to match the wounds of Christ. Since this phenomenon was limited to Catholics, they naturally interviewed folk from the Vatican. Prior to the early 1900s, the wounds in stigmata were in the hands, feet, side and head.
Around this time, a French physicist experimented with corpses and came to the conclusion that nails through the skin of the hand would not support a body long enough for that body to die. The nails would rip through the skin and the body would fall before it died. Stigmata mysteriously moved to the wrists, which is where this physicist said the nails must have been driven.
Then, about 10 years ago, another physicist performed a similar study, only this time using a live person, no nails and a computer to simulate crucifixion. The results showed that, as long as the feet were supporting the body (which would not be possible with a corpse), the nail through the hands would indeed be able to support a body long enough for that body to die. Stigmata has been mysteriously moving back to the hands.
When asked, a representative of the Vatican said, "God has to perform miracles in a way that people can believe them." Clay's paraphrase follows: "Let's put God in our own little box so he's nice and pretty."

Secular TV has a way of trying to destroy Christianity. Satan attempts to do that because he thinks he gains points for every soul he steals away from Christ. He's trying to do that to you right now. If he can steal you away from Christ, he's won in your life. For you, the battle for eternity will not matter.

I pray, Ceres, that you'll stick with the Word, with what you know to be true. Talk to your spiritual leaders. Remain open to what the faithful say. You'll find the answers you seek.

Remember the meaning of life:

Love the Lord your God with everything you are.
Love your neighbor as yourself.

Peace!

Ceres, How is the bible fallible? Can you cite something that has specifally troubled you? Because, like Clay, I also believe the Word of God is infallible. To say the bible can't be taken at it's word is like saying you can't trust or believe God.

And yes, I believe people of other faiths are going to hell because the bible tells us so. There is but one way to the father, and that is through the son. You can't reach heaven unless you accept Jesus Christ as your Savior. That's what makes us Christians. Jesus Christ is our Savior.

Have you ever read "No Wonder They Call Him the Savior" by Max Lucado. Before I was saved I was really hung up on this issue of other religions. At the time, my husband, then my boyfriend, gave me this book to read. That book made the path to salvation very clear to me.

To a lot of "Christians" I am a pagan. I believe that God presents himself to us the easiest way we can comprehend. Explains the major religions. But people are dumb stupid panicky animals and we have to conform.

The Bible has been through so many hands that sometimes ya gotta wonder if the words can be trusted. They can't always. But you can trust the spirit of the Bible. The core tennants will ring true.

I do not look to my Bible as the be all end all source. I look to the Lord for that.

I look to the Bible to help me fill in the Gaps... if something doesn't make sense I talk to others, I meditate, and I pray.

My best friend is a witch. He is one of the best sources I have to talk to God about. It's wierd... but he's a great sounding board, he goes to a Christian church almost every Sunday with his wife and participates and helps other Christians along their various paths.

I believe that I am a Christian. I believe in one God, I believe in Christ, and I believe that Christ died for my sins.

I take my Bible witha grain of salt, and a lot of Prayer.

I took a class at my husband's university back in the day. It was Old Testament History. In that class they went through the proven history and the unproven history. It is known even by those in ministry that the Bible is problematic as "infallible." However, they came up with some "hold onto your faith" speech so that you wouldn't falter. Jericho has been excavated three times, and it has been determined that there was no major walled city existing on that site in the period between 2000 and 1100 BC. So there's one hole. Actually, the entire account of Joshua is historically.... bad. Now first, let me resay, I learned this in a Christian university of students training for ministry. Most of them shrugged it off and went on with life. But how can we claim the Bible is infallible when there are obvious mistakes? I cannot.

On the show last night.... they went along with the story as it is told in the Bible. They did not address historical excavations but went along with the story as-is and discussed weapons of the time and killing people hands-on and the war-time strategies demonstrated in the Bible. And we say our God is unlike Allah! The God of Christianity is as bloody as the God of Islam if not bloodier, killing whole towns just because.... the only difference is OUR texts say everyone else is going to hell, but the Qu'ran says that Christians and Jews are going to paradise. So I don't know where Christianity got the idea that our God is peaceful. Have they ever read the old testament?

And how about the multiple creation stories.... the one clearly mirrors the Babylonians story and was a response to it, and the other was the "original." What's that all about and how does that fit into theology?

Yeah.... I just don't believe it is infallible, its written by men after all....

See, and I used to believe that too. But not anymore.... and therein lies the problem. I've been trying to ignore it. Its been maybe 2 or 3 years I've been fighting this. I hold onto Christianity because I am afraid of hell... and I know all about what the Bible says. But in the end it doesn't look all that different than all the other religions, and I just don't really *believe* it.... sure would be easier if I did. I try to believe it because I've been a Christian long enough to fit in easier with this group, since I don't agree with pre-marital sex and other things.... just my reasons are not Bible reasons....

Ceres... you gotta walk the path that's right for you.

I hope you find it and I hope you keep with us here.

If you feel the need to wander the agnostic path so be it.

Mine led me back to God with a greater understanding of what faith really is.

Mine also took me through some very dark times where I witnessed a lot of evil done inthe name of our God by those that were confused or blinded to the truth.

I pray that you find your path.

And what do you think about the nasty bloodshed in the old testament where they would kill everyone just because thats what you do? how does that fit into "Bible as guidebook" and what about the time Elisha(or Elijah?) had a bear maul some kids.... how does that fit into Bible as guidebook?

I just can't reconcile it all.... live according to Bible, when I think the Bible can be so... icky....

I think God was pissed at his disobedient children.

We were given one simple rule and we flubbed it up.

I think God can hold a grudge.

I think Like any father when we disobeyed him it took a long time for him to calm down, and while he was mad we got the most strict versions of the laws. Finally God figures hey we deserve a second chance and here comes the Christ....

But God is immutable and outside of time...

:blink:

Well I don't know what I think.

I guess I just think about it for a while longer...

Time is a man made thing... It's something we created to measure passage

You have to remember that everything changed when Jesus came. We read the Old Testament because if God wrote it, then we should know it. But it's history. We are saved by Grace. Jesus came and died for us. We no longer live by the laws of the Old Testament. It's a whole 'nother ball game for us living in this dispensation.

The other thing you have to remember is that as each day passes we grow closer to Christ's return. And that's been true since Jesus returned to Heaven, right? So that means the enemy grows more anxious and gets a little more aggressive with each passing day too. Be wary. Don't listen to churches. Don't listen to tv. Don't listen to man. Listen to your heart. Listen to the gentle nudging of the Holy Spirit. Remember, if it doesn't line up with the Word - then it's not from God. I don't think this is true for every situation, but I sincerely believe God will be faithful to this turmoil in your heart if you fast. Think about it. Pray about it.

Long post coming up. Lots of stuff to discuss. Print this post, take it to the can with you instead of the sports page. I think this will be some good reading. Pay no attention to the picture that may prevent you from taking this seriously... :whistle:

Before I start, I would like to say that everybody experiences crises of faith periodically throughout their lives. When I was in high school, I believed I was saved. Things the Methodist Church taught me, though, didn't settle well. Not being one to research at that time, I found another answer - booze and sex.

All my life, I knew I needed Christ, but I wouldn't devote myself to him out of pride. After that, I've still suffered crises of faith. Hercules and Jesus have something in common - heavenly father, earthly mother. That was a crisis that took me a while to get through. I began to doubt it all as an answer to Greek myth. It was after researching it I found that the legend of Hercules was actually inspired by the story of Christ.

It's the action of Satan to get us away from Christ. Sometimes he succeeds. Sometimes -- well, he better watch out! God's gonna win!

Ok, here we go:

I have not taken bible courses at a university. I have, in my darkest times, reached out for understanding, and I have come to a firm conclusion. Those who truly believe what they are preaching believe it to be infallible. A recent "statement of faith" I read said, "We believe the bible to be the inerrant Word of God." No ifs, no ands, no buts.

I have studied the Bible in depth and I, too believe the Bible to be infallible. When I come across seeming contradictions, I examine them in-depth. I read different translations. When that fails, I break out my Strong's Dictionary and an electronic copy of the Greek and Hebrew scripture and try to determine the meaning on my own. If this doesn't work, I contact several friends who are Bible scholars in different traditions (CofC, Baptist, Methodist, etc.). I pray and meditate on the subject, discuss it with anyone who will listen and I listen to the Spirit's answer. I have yet to find a contradiction when examining the original text in this way.

I have read a great deal on this subject, as for many years I was skeptical. Here is a brief summary of what I've found:

• Albright excavated Jericho about 100 years ago. He found that there were two concentric walls surrounding Jericho with houses near the tops between the walls. The outer wall had fallen in such a way that it made a ramp to the top of the inner wall. Only one section of the wall had not fallen - and the houses in this section were intact. Rahab?
  
  
• Since Albright was a Christian, the agnostic/atheistic scientific community cried "FOUL" and sent teams to investigate. They said they did not find any indication of walls around Jericho.
  
  

Who's right? People who want to discredit anything will find a tiny glitch or even falsehood (Tom DeLay, for example) and build it into something gigantic. People who want to discredit the Bible are just as subject to make false reports as people who desire to lend credence to the Bible. My thoughts - don't trust any of them.

Muslims are condemned because they deny Christ. Same with modern Jews.

Our God is Love. He is peaceful. He also demands to be the only one worshipped. In the Garden, He stated that sin = death. To a people who had no background, what else could they understand? The Canaanites had settled in land that was not in their grant - Ham and his descendants were to settle in Africa, Canaan did not go far enough - though that's hardly reason to wipe them out.

So, a war-like people only understand war. He had already wiped out the earth once with a flood, and people still didn't take the hint. He had promised that this would not happen again, and there were bright spots in His creation, like Noah, Shem, Eber, Abraham. Abraham's oldest son Ishmael had a descendant named Midian (remember this). Most of the other people, however, could not get their minds around monotheism. They would rather worship their king (Sargon, the mighty hunter - not of animals...). They would rather worship the lightning and other things that scared them. They would rather worship the water and fertility so they would be blessed.

God watched and found those who were faithful. He blessed them. Abraham, Isaac, Jacob. The rest of the people, though, degenerated further into paganism. Fertility rituals featured temple prostitutes - those whose job it was to have sex with anyone who came in - to please the fertility deities. This led to rampant venereal diseases.

Fast-forward to Moses. Egypt was a kingdom of non-believers. Pharaoh would not let the Hebrews worship God. That is the main reason God wanted them out. Pharaoh was killing all the boys. Pharaoh had a lot of free labor, and people that loved God were the ones suffering. So God sent a series of plagues upon Egypt that included killing the firstborn male child in every house. The Hebrews were free to go.

Moses' wife was the daughter of a Midianite priest named Jethro. Jethro worshipped the one true God. How did he find out about Him? He was Ishmael's descendant. He knew of God.

God handed down the LAW at Mt. Sinai that said, "You must worship no other gods but Me." While he was doing this, the Hebrews built an idol. 30,000 of them died for that. They knew better, but they were spiritually weak. All people understood at this point was violence. There had not yet been any intellectual enlightment.

Now, the Hebrews are ready to enter the land promised to them through Abraham. But there are a lot of people there who worship false gods. VD is rampant, and it is believed that everything would be infected. God tells the Hebrews to kill every one of the Canaanites. Why? To eliminate all worship of false gods. To eliminate the bacteria that carry VD. To eliminate the enticements to sin.

The Hebrews didn't do what they were commanded. They let them live. What happened? The Hebrews, too, turned to false gods.

As people progressed and became more intellectual, however, God began to adapt His punishment to meet the intellect. Through captivity, the Israelites taught the Babylonians and the Persians about God. It is widely accepted that the Magi who brought gifts were familiar with Isaiah and Daniel's prophecies about Christ. Read in Daniel, and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nebuchadrezzar_II about Nebuchadnezzar's belief in God.

Finally, after the Greeks established a common language throughout the known world, and the Romans established a world without borders, the world had become intellectual enough to engage in debate about the One True God. And God sent His Son, the Spoken Word of God, to bring His message to Earth.

People were no longer as warlike as they had been, and people now understood a great deal more than just death. God knew His people were ready to listen to Wisdom. He no longer had to deal in wrath.

I'll be perfectly honest. I've never understood the multiple creation thing. I just re-read Genesis 1-2 and it sounds like chapter 1 is written to be a lesson by itself. Chapter 2 is written to pick up a little before chapter 1 stops - it summarizes chapter 1 - and is carried on from there.

Let's assume that they are the same. Let's even assume that the Babylonian was written before Moses. Accept that the flood did happen. It is documented in far too many ancient religions (Babylonian [Gilgamesh], Hindu [Bhagadavita] and others) to be false. So, for the sake of discussion, Sargon the great was a generation or two removed from the flood survivor whom I'll call Noah.

According to the Bible and timelines available based upon the years people lived before the flood, Adam was alive and could have passed along information to Methuselah. Methuselah died the year of the flood adn could have passed along information to Noah. This oral tradition, though now at least 1,000 years old, still only needed to pass through two hands before Noah. Finally, Noah was still alive when Sargon was born and could have passed the information to him. Only three people stood between the possible Babylonian creation story and the time it was written. It could be just as true as the Hebrew story.

It was inspired by the Holy Spirit. I can attest to the keys on my keyboard moving and something flowing from me that is not from my head. There are things that I write that I simply cannot come up with on my own. I believe those writings are inspired by the Holy Spirit working in me.

It was translated by people, but we have enough ancient documents that modern translations are closer to the original than the hand copies in the Dark Ages. That's why the Dead Sea Scrolls were such a valuable find. They verified authenticity of later source documents for translation. The findings were that aside from a few meaningless errors, the sources were correct.

Pharisees held on to their religious beliefs because they knew God would punish Israel again for not following the law. Problem is, they kept the letter of the law without the spirit. They would not work on the Sabbath because they thought that would keep it holy (that was the final straw for their fight against Christ). They did not, however, treat their neighbors with love, nor did they love God. They showed off to people how great they were and denied the poor access to worship. They were condemned at length by Christ in Matthew 23.

Lots of 'good' people believe the Judeo-Christian 'good and bad' guidelines, but that won't save you from hell. Only faith in Jesus Christ can save you. A crisis of faith won't necessarily condemn you. An unrepentant denial of Christ can, however.

Many people throughout history have sought blood in the name of Jesus. Many in our own traditions have done this. Examples include The Crusades, the Inquisition, the Protestant Purges and Eric Rudolph. Just because they say they are serving Christ by killing people does not mean they are right. Again, see the reference to the Pharisees above.

Be careful if you wander too far from the fold. You may find it too enticing and not make it back.

(I apologize - I cannot access my references right now, they're packed in eager anticipation of new carpet - someday) Many English versions have mis-translated a Hebrew word for young men into boys. There is a difference, and a gang of young men can do much more tease. I believe, though it is conjecture, that the bear was called for Elisha's defense.

A big AMEN, Lynn!

The biggest reason for the OT in our scripture is because the prophecy there points to Christ. Isaiah, Daniel, Ezekiel, Micah -- they all talk about the coming Christ. I have a good friend who was raised a liberal Jew. His family kept the traditions, but wasn't extremely strict. He read the book of Isaiah, and a copy of the NT, and became a Christian. His family disowned him when he was baptized.

Ceres, I ask that you will honestly read what we have written here. You must be seeking answers or you would not have started this thread.

I, too, pray that you will find your path. I pray that it will be the narrow path that leads to Heaven through Jesus Christ. He is also knocking on your door. Listen to Him.

Love in Christ, my sister.

Reps you you clay!! :thumbsup:....oh, I forgot...we don't have those here... B)

Well, then, how about a big... :amen:

Oh, and if you want some very good reading, try "The Case for Christ" by Lee Strobel.

Strobel is a high-rolling investigative journalist, and a former devout atheist, whose wife converted to Christ. He was ready to divorce her, anxiously awaiting the bible-thumping. It never happened. She remained the fun-loving person she always was. She just became more loving. He was intrigued and began to investigate.

The book details his research into the authenticity of the Bible. His findings led him to Christ. The reading is great. I highly recommend it to anyone whose faith is in doubt.

First, let me say I mean this with the utmost respect.

But how can this be argued? I've heard it all before, again, I used to buy it myself because with appropriate long term brainwashing-- I mean educating! :nono: -- anything can be believed. Jesus said, "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven." Matthew 5:18

And yet we ignore this verse, or justify it saying "well he really means THIS and not preceisely what he said" which is just funny to me because other verses the very same people will say "it so clearly says this! how can you say he doesn't mean precisely what it says? I believe EXACTLY what the Bible says!" Again, a result of their personal denominations "education."

Thus as a result of what Jesus said in the very book that we call holy it cannot be argued that what is in the Old Testament does not have validity. And if it is true, that only the New Testament and the New covenant holds water, then why do these same people pull a random verse out of Proverbs and tell me the Bible teaches to spank?

Selective reading and understanding? I think so.

Initial response to clay's post: :yikes:

Let's start here. Let me out out one of my books and get you a quote and a reference. First, take note that this is written by a CHRISTIAN author for a CHRISTIAN audience.

It says, "Despite some early claims that the remains of Joshua's Jericho has been found, it has generally been determined that there wasno major walled city existing on that site in the period between 2000 and 1100 BCE."

I am not one to buy that the agnostics and athiests are out to get me.... are you? Scientists are scientists and if upon further examination and dating they found that the walls were much later, and they were, why question that as though people have ulterior motives? It is that kind of thinking that causes people to think the same about Christians... "well, she just says that because she is a Christian and not because she has done any real research."

edit to add: The Name of this book is The Old Testament: Text and Context. by Victor H. Matthews and James C. Moyer

Yes, I know, that wasn't really my point though. But since we are here.... I think this is one of the major flaws of Christianity, and most major religions. "I'm right, they're wrong.... the more different they are from me, the more wrong they are." Some people have more grace and can allow more "into the fold" as in Christians who accept all kinds of Christians. Others have less and think things like "Only MY denomination is going to heaven" :rollseyes: I just cannot buy that considering how small of a percentage of humans in the world have in the past been Christians that everyone else is damned because they were not born into a Christian country. What kind of God is this, anyway? Maybe it is a human weakness that we cannot comprehend things so different from us without condemning it.