What do you all think about it?

I visited a different church yesterday. I felt (feel) like the church I usually attend is really dry and I find that I don't feel drawn to get up every week to go there.

In a way, I was secretly hoping that my experience at this new church would give me a good enough reason to leave my current church and start attending this new one.

So we're sitting there and things are going well. The music was great and really familiar to what I was used to as a kid... but it went on and on and on and on.

Then a lady offered a prayer. It was a really passionate prayer and she was getting really deep into it and you could hear the excitement in her voice... and then all of a sudden...

Akalalalalkkkakakakakakakalalalakakakaka!!!!! Hummina hummina hummina hummina hummina hummina!!!!! Ogee boogie boogie boogie boogie boogie boogie boogie boogie!!!

After a few seconds, she went back to speaking in English. :|

My heart stopped and I was like, "Oh HELL no!!! Don't tell me this is one of THOSE churches!!!"

I was so disappointed. I went in saying that I'd disqualify the church on three substantial strikes. But speaking in tongues, for me, is worth 3 strikes in a single blow.

I've never been exposed to it, so I'm afraid I would only be speaking in ignorance....but my gut feeling is that I would be weirded out by it....

This was kinda addressed in my thread I posted to get info on the Assembly of God church....but we didn't get into specifics about the speaking in tongues part...

I'd be curious to hear the history from people who are knowledgeable about it....


MOD NOTE: If this turns into a debate (which would be fine), we'll move the thread over to Theology

I've grown up around a lot of friends who believe that those who are blessed by the Holy Spirit will have the "talent" of speaking in tongues.

From what I've witnessed, I think people bring it onto themselves. They're so convinced that, in order to be among the spiritually elite, you must be able to have this ability. Without it, you're just not holy enough.

Psychologically, I think that when you want something bad enough, you can turn it into reality. There's a guy at my current church who is convinced that he can see demons in their spiritual/demonic form while he's praying over people. And with speaking in tongues, who's gonna tell you that you're wrong? From what I've witnessed in the past, and the people that I know, I think that they want to have it as proof that they're on that "level" with God. Kinda like, "Don't question my Christianity... I can speak in TONGUES!"

Red, I take it from your post that you did not understand the speaker. I have trouble believing that such babble comes from the Holy Spirit. Public prayer is for the benefit of the listening audience, not the Holy Spirit. Perhaps the prayer leader is guiding the prayers of the audience. Still, though, the 'speaking in tongues' is worthless without an interpreter.

Some churches believe that without tongues, you are not of the Spirit. I don't buy that. We all receive gifts. Some receive a gift of tongues. A minister at my church relayed a story of being at a conference with a friend who only spoke English. A German man came up and asked about Christ. His friend began speaking to the man in his native language. The man understood, asked more questions, received answers, said "Danke," and walked away. This is, IMHO, the gift of tongues.

I am able to read Spanish, German, French and Portugese with little help. The words come to me. I cannot hear it, but I can read it. This is, IMHO, a sort of gift of tongues - I can be an interpreter from those written languages to English. I have had no formal training in any language, and learned Spanish on the streets of South Texas.

As someone once told me, Test the Spirits. Pray about your experience. Is this something you feel is for real? Ask the Holy Spirit for guidance. Take His answer to heart and roll with it.

Oh, and by the way, it's spelled "y'all", not you all.

:D

I agree, Clay.

My opinion is that the gift of speaking in tongues is the gift of being able to share the Word of Christ in many different languages.

Hence the term "Mother Tongue".

Sadly, so many others think that speaking in tongues means flapping your tongue around in your mouth and having some unintelligible nonsense come out.

Some churches also place an unneccesary high priority on that ONE SPECIFIC GIFT, to the point where they think that it's the end all and be all of being a Christian. As if it's proof.

Forgive me for speaking the Queen's English!!! LOL

Even the pastor, while presenting his sermon, would pause every now and then to mutter some stuff that nobody understood.

I just read through the Assemblies of God thread.

I realize that I'm probably bringing up some old stuff... sorry! :D

just a thought that i've always been confused about....
isn't there scripture somewhere (i know, i'm terrible about remembering WHAT i heard, but not WHERE i heard it!) that says that when we are praying and feel that we can't pray about something because we are in loss of words then the spirit can take over and pray for us?! and you said something about the speaking in tongues at this particular church was during a ladies prayer. so....does this verse apply there??? is this an example of that??? i've never really been able to figure that one out. i don't necessarily rule out the possibility of speaking 'in tongues'. because i feel that it would be limiting my God and putting him in a box. but....i do believe that there is a time, place, and reason for all things that God allows. i don't really know.....just babbling as i think it through!

There are several references to speaking in tongues in scripture, and some are unclear if taken by themselves, but taking them as a whole, it's clear that this gift allowed the Apostles to proclaim the gospel in other known languages, although they hadn't learned these languages. I'm not a dispensationalist, so I think this could happen in our time, but most of what we see in Pentecostal/charismatic churches is a counterfeit of this gift. I say this as someone who spoke in tongues several years (from 16 to about 20), so I'm not condemning anyone for being confused or deceived by these modern distortions.

The beginning of the modern speaking in tongues, began back with Charles Paraham in Kansas around 1900. His students believed they had received a "baptism in the Holy Spirit" as an experience subsequent to salvation and began "speaking in tongues" which they took as evidence that this experience had occured. From this even the modern Pentecostal movement began.

In the 1960s, ministers Dennis Bennett (Episcopalian, I think) and David DuPlessis, both claimed to have experienced this same event. That was the start of what is called the charismatic movement, marking the spread of the "baptism in the Spirit" into mainstream churches. From that start many broke away or were kicked out of mainstream churches and began non-demon charismatic groups. They all believe in the baptism of the Holy Spirit, but some do not believe speaking in tongues is necessary. In the church I attended, they coached everyone who was baptized in the Spirit to talk in tongues.

My hindsight view is that the baptism of the Spirit is a misinterpretation of a couple verses, which referred to water baptism, and that speaking in tongues is merely an emotionally driven release which does make people "feel" something, but it is not from God, which we must always be careful to say, but judging the fruit and actual occurences of tongues, I think it's not from Him. Miracles have never ceased, but the authentic gift of tongues is rarely seen, and has never been interpeted to be a "prayer language" or "prophetic gift" as some use it in those groups.

Basil

Roman 8:26 says, "In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words." (New American Standard Version)

This is the verse sighted to justify the new teaching of tongues being a "prayer language," but what the verse really means is that even if you can't formulate words to pray, God still can understand the unintelligible utterances you make, such as sighs, cries, groanings, etc. He knows you hearts, so don't despair. It's not always the words of your prayer that matter, but the condition of your heart when you come before God.

Basil

I've been to churches (non-demonational) that teach if you don't speak in tongues, you ain't saved. They step you through it - "Just let the Spirit move you. Move your mouth. You may feel silly, but keep on doing it. It's the Spirit moving your mouth now. Balalallalalllalalla..."

And nobody will interpret for the speaker.

Perhaps the person with the public prayer did have the Holy Spirit intercede with groanings (Romans 8:26-27). I know that I have experienced this with extremely emotional personal prayers, but never during a public prayer.

As I said, test the spirits.

The woman who was doing the public prayer was getting really deep and off the hinges with her prayer.... which isn't unusual to me.

She was beginning to sound repetitive too.

"Oh, Lord God! Father! I ask that you (fill in the blanks)"
"Oh, Lord God! Father! I ask that you (fill in the blanks)"
"Oh, Lord God! Father! I ask that you (fill in the blanks)"
"Oh, Lord God! Father! I ask that you (fill in the blanks)"
"Oh, Lord God! Father! I ask that you (fill in the blanks)"
"Oh, Lord God! Father! I ask that you (fill in the blanks)"

Each time, getting louder and louder. Then the "tongues" began. I opened my eyes and peeked up at her while she was doing it and she looked like she was having a seizure of some sort. Her upper body was shaking a bit and her words were just sounding almost poltergeist-ish.

Everyone in the congregation got excited and threw their hands up and started screaming "Amen!". Like the woman had just scored a field goal or hit the high note in their favourite song.

I was dating a girl when I was a teenager and she invited me to her church one evening. Kirk Franklin was the guest speaker. He asked everyone to join in for a group prayer and my girlfriend was praying quietly to herself. She started praying faster and faster and louder and louder and then SHE started speaking in tongues. She must've been 15-16 at the time. I was 16. At the same time, EVERYONE around me was doing it... and I'm sure nobody was understanding each other. I just didn't see the point and I'm sure that none of it was authentic or actually fron God.

hey Basil...thanx for finding that verse for me! i'm impressed!!! :thumbsup: that's the exact one that i was trying to think of.

:thanks:

Finally, I can use this smilie! (When I first glanced at it, I thought tomatoes were being thrown, which I could have used last week).


Basil

Here - if it'll make you feel better, :smack:

But here's one for the courage I've seen: :bravo:

:haha: now THAT'S funny!! :thumbsup:

I'm too spiritually tired to even have this discussion.... no offense to any of you, its just me. I think that I can't "speak in tongues" because I don't have enough faith. I think that it is possible and it does happen but not everyone who thinks they are doing it are. And this verse, Roman 8:26 says, "In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words." (New American Standard Version) it does say "the Spirit Himself intercedes" so I don't see how this is interpreted as "God knows our heart" but I guess anyone who wants to interpret a scripture so that it fits into their theology can. If anyone is actually interested then I can write to you about alllllllllllllllllllll of the verses in the New Testament where believers spoke in tongues. Not all of them have "and dude over there knew instantly what he was saying." Some of them were completely unintelligible. Wow I can't believe I wrote all this .... bonus.... but I'm not going to explain the whole thing. People see what they want to see and I definitely understand feeling freaked out about it. That is the reason why we are not at a "Spirit filled" church anymore.... cultural reasons, mainly, but that also would take a whole long amount to explain, so, over and out.

:tease:

The thing that I'm forced to wonder though, is why can one church of charasmatics have 100-200 people who can all supposedly speak in tongues?

But then when you go over to a Baptist or Catholic or Methodist church, NOBODY does it? Is it because they don't have faith?

I would think that if the speaking in tongues phenomenon was as integral as some make it out to be, then you'd have some instances (in, say, a Baptist church) where one person is really being faithful and feeling super blessed and then starts babbling.

:huh:

Red, that's kind of my thoughts in a nutshell. If speaking in tongues is supposed to show how super-faithful you are, then WHY don't you see it in any other churches (like you mentioned)?

I'm not trying to be antagonistic....really! B) ....just trying to learn something!

Exactly--It is a phenomenon that has ony begun occurring inchurces in recent history. I still stand on what I said in the other thread. Not all our "feelings" and excitement that we might get in church is from God, if we hve been intentionally misled. I think that The people who interpreted the scriptures to mean yada baba goo goo nana --is speaking in toungues were misled. It is not scriptural and never occurred for the first 11900 years of Christianity. I have heard of them telling people that they are not true Christians, or that their faith is weak because they don't say kdjf;oiasdjt dsiaertn aseoira in church, but this is just false. Who are they to judge and say that you don't have strong enough faith, just because you don't lose composure and act insane like they do. From an objective point of view, Red, did that woman look like she was filled with the Holy Spirit or perhaps, from an objective point of view, did it look like she was possessed? ( No, people I'm not saying that she was!! ) I am just saying that I don't think that God will cause a person to act like they are crazy and shake around like that. the emotions she was feeling-no doubt-contributed to her release of physical composure... we just cannot trust our own feelings to tell us that something is right or wrong. Just like us, our feelings can be deceived, and to refuse that emotion is deceptive only demonstrates our weak humanity. Think back on your life--how many time have you felt that you were making the right decision and realised later that your feeling on the thing were wrng? It happens like that with Charismatic religions. They rely heavily on the feelings they get from talking like that and the adrenaline rush also contribues to their euphoria.

Also, if it were a true sincere language they were speaking, someone by now would have interpreted it . And if it were real the sounds that they make, the phenomes, would be the same across the various languages, ut English speakers only "speak in tongues" using the phenomes and morphemes of the english language, while a speaker of, say chinese, will use Chinese sounds in his "tongues" language. This has been noted by linguists, so it is not my own opinion. A "real" language would not change with the speaker's language--it would be the same across the board.

My husband used to go to a church that did this and he said that it got absolutely insane sometimes. people would be babbling so much and they would get so excited that they were running around the room and rolling on the ground and stuff... it was those kinds of behaviors that led him to open his eyes to the falsity of the whole "tongues" thing. While he said that he did it too, I am not sure how "excited" he would get while he did it. He is a rather reerved person so I can't imagine him flailing around and acting so wildly...He said that it was like a mob mentality would take over. You know like how crowds get wound up and start looting...He siad it was similar to that. You just follow the crowd and revel in the excitement.....

I'll have to answer this later... and I may use a PM for the two of you.... :hug: all understandable questions

It's hard enough for me to speak my own language........

I can tell you this.... from a Biblical standpoint-- that is what it actually says in the Bible, their case is SOLID. But someone has to be open to receiving the gift before you will. So Baptists are not open. And actually it *does* happen, but then they have to leave the church. I know a guy who started spontaneously "babbling" as you say in his basement while he was seeking God and later found the AG church.

Anyway, honestly, I'm all blah about this :P Heck, I'm feeling blah in general but that's another story entirely. I wonder if either you or andiesmama would be interested in doing an independent study? I will tell you where to read in the Bible, and you will tell me what it means to you when you read it and how it does or does not support the "speaking in tongues" and maybe we can have a swell time and you guys can decide for yourself what you think.

I think it would make interesting discussion....do you wanna start another thread on it?

I've seen some people who claim to speak in tongues start doing. It just looked like an epileptic fit combined with tourettes with out the profanity.

I have to find the verse I don't remember where it was that spoke about the apostles (I think it was the apostles at least...) spontaeneouly start speaking in tongues. But what I remember of it was that they were gathered in a place that had people of many different cultures who didn't all speak a comone language, and it was the power of God granting them the ability to communicate.


I'll have to look for the verse at home.... don't take the Bible to work...

www.biblegateway.com... gotta love it....

King James Version
Acts 2:4 through 12 but Acts 2:13 through 15 have a little to say on the matter too...

Acts 2
1And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.

2And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.

3And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.

4And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

5And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.

6Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.

7And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?

8And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?

9Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,

10Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,

11Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

12And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this?

13Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.

14But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:

15For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.

You are correct :thumbsup:

Why is it that people think that people spoke in tongues in the Bible only in Acts 2? Do we stop reading Acts there? Do we skip all of the Epistles??

*ceres pulls her hair out*

Umm that was the only verse I remembered.

If you care to supply me with more places to read about it I'll check them out.

I figure it shows up more than once but that was the only one I knew of...

Can't post about something I don't remember / don't know where to find.

The kind of "speaking in tongues" that happens in todays churches never happened until around 1900, and there is written evidence of this, documenting the first experiences of it etc...The guy's name was Charles Parham--Google it Raspy--You'll learn lots about the origin of the Pentecostal/charismatic movement. That is why it doesn't happen in every christian church in existance. it is just a divergence in interpretation of scripture, as many of the basis for various protestant groups are... I love looking up the cold hard historical facts :D

Charismatic???

I dont' find the idea of someone convulsing and spitting out gibberish very Charismatic..... Is there another reason for that particualr name?

Then again I don't see eye to eye with a lot of things.... Kinda apropriate my parents named me what the did.....

That is not true, its all over the Bible.

I don't think that people convulsing and spitting out anything is a good idea, since that's not in the Bible.

In the Bible there are two ways that people speak in tongues. Some of them had interpretations or were languages that people knew. Others were not and were between them and God. Paul himself says, "I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you. But in the church I would rather speak five intelligible words to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue." (1 Corinth 14:18,19) which clearly indicates that some of his words were NOT intelligible or interpretable in church-- so he should keep them silent. There is, however, a type of tongue that is appropriate for church and Paul addresses that this way, "What then shall we say, brothers? When you come together, everyone has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. All of these must be done for the strengthening of the church. If anyone speaks in a tongue, two, or at the most three, should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and God." (26-28) In conclusion, Paul says, "Therefore, my brothers, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues. But everything should be done in a fitting and orderly way." And there is sooooo much more to why, how, when, and who said what to this... but here is one small bit for you to chew on. But no doubt the Orthodox church thinks they know better than Paul in how the church should be run.

Thanks for that verse, Ceres....that's what is says to me as well....that verse seems to define speaking in tongues as something that's not NECESSARILY understood by others....IMO... B)

so, Ceres are you saying that Charles Parham at the bible college in Kansas did not experience this "phenomenon" or start the penticostal movement? Ant if what you are saying is all over the bible, then surely it happened after bible times and before 1900. Anf if it happened before then, there will be written evidence of it. What evidence can you provide that it happened after biblical times and before Charles Parham? You seem quite confident in your belief in it--then you should have no problem finding evidence that proves that it has happened for the last 1900 years... And if it did not happen for 1900 years, what does that say about the strength of the Holy Spirit?

There is no evidence of it happening prior to Mr. Parham's group and the references of it in the Bible have been misinterpreted and or misunderstood.....

Written history holds no proof of this behavior before 1900.

But the Bible IS written history....

I believe there were probably individuals who did it while they were in their prayer closet and were like WHOA I better not tell anyone about THAT. :doh:

As I have stated, it is a gift not something forced on you. It happens spontaneously, but only if you are open to receiving it. God will not forcibly make you speak in tongues. That would ruin the concept of God as a gentleman giving humans free will.