Realities Of Islam (Faith, Hope, and Love)

Title: Realities Of Islam

Stringaling - February 24, 2006 01:58 AM (GMT)

I'd like to discuss this..

***Photos removed by Mod - GR***

Stringaling - February 24, 2006 01:59 AM (GMT)

QUOTE

Moral climate change in Britain - Mattingly

From: "Prof. Terry Mattingly" <tmatt@tmatt.net>
Subject: [tmattingly-weekly] 02/15: Moral climate change in Britain
To: tmattingly-weekly@lists.gospelcom.net

This column was syndicated by Scripps Howard News Service on 02/15/2006

One of the demonstrators was a small child with a placard that said,
"Whoever insults the prophet kill him." Another marcher wore a suicide
bomber costume.

Other signs in London said: "Behead those who insult Islam," "Europeans
take a lesson from 9/11" and "Prepare for the REAL Holocaust." The
organizer of the Feb. 3 event told the BBC that he looked forward to the
day when "the black flag of Islam will be flying over Downing Street."

But what stunned British writer Geoffrey Wheatcroft was something else he
saw while blitzing through news reports about the waves of fury inspired
by those 12 Danish cartoons of the prophet Mohammad.

"Not only did the police make no arrests" during the London demonstration,
even though it "openly incited murder; they actually sheltered the
fanatics," he noted, in a Slate.com essay. "Two men who tried to stage a
peaceable counterdemonstration were hustled away for questioning. A
working-class Londoner ... was told in violent language by a cop to get
back in his van and go away."

This raises a disturbing question: Have British citizens lost the ability
to exercise their free speech rights in public defiance of demands by many
Muslim clerics and politicians for limitations on the freedom of the press
in the West?

It's hard to answer this kind of question right now because a "moral
climate change" has destroyed England's certainty that some things are
right and some things are wrong, said Bishop N.T. Wright of Durham, in a
speech last week in the House of Lords. Thus, civic leaders cannot agree
on the meaning of words such as "freedom" and "tolerance" and religious
faith is seen as a threat instead of a virtue.

"The 1960s and 1970s swept away the old moral certainties, and anyone who
tries to reassert them risks being mocked as an ignoramus or scorned as a
hypocrite. But since then we've learned that you can't run the world as a
hippy commune," said Wright, a former Oxford don who also has served as
Westminster Abbey's canon theologian.

"Getting rid of the old moralities hasn't made us happier or safer. ...
This uncertainty, my Lords, has produced our current nightmare, the
invention of new quasi-moralities out of bits and pieces of moral
rhetoric, the increasingly shrill and polymorphous language of 'rights',
the glorification of victimhood which enables anyone with hurt feelings to
claim moral high ground and the invention of various 'identities' which
demand not only protection but immunity from critique."

Instead of focusing on the cartoon crisis, Wright described other signs of
legal and moral confusion in British life. Prime Minister Tony Blair, for
example, sent painfully mixed signals after last summer's suicide
bombings. His government leaned one way when it tried to ban efforts to
"glorify" terrorism. Then it leaned the other way with legislation that
would ban the promotion of "religious hatred."

Wright stressed that it will be dangerous to pass laws that attempt to
replace, amend or edit religious doctrines that have shaped the lives of
believers for centuries. But politicians seem determined to try.

Thus, Birmingham University forced the Evangelical Christian Union off
campus and seized the group's funds because it refused to amend its bylaws
to allow non-Christians or atheists to become voting members.

Thus, Wright noted that police have shut down protests in Parliament
Square against British policies in Iraq. Comedians -- facing vague laws
against hate speech -- are suddenly afraid to joke about religion. And was
there any justification for government investigations of the Anglican
bishop of Chester and the chairman of the Muslim Council of Great Britain
because they made statements critical of homosexuality?

Public officials, said the bishop, are trying to control the beliefs that
are in people's hearts and the thoughts that are in their heads. The
tolerance police are becoming intolerant, which is a strange way to
promote tolerance.

"People in my diocese have told me that they are now afraid to speak their
minds in the pub on some major contemporary issues for fear of being
reported, investigated, and perhaps charged," said Wright. "I did not
think I would see such a thing in this country in my lifetime. ... The
word for such a state of affairs is 'tyranny' -- sudden moral climate
change, enforced by thought police."

Terry Mattingly (www.tmatt.net) directs the Washington Journalism Center
at the Council for Christian Colleges and Universities. He writes this
weekly column for the Scripps Howard News Service

GutterRat - February 24, 2006 02:04 AM (GMT)

Thread closed for Mod Review ......

**Edit

Ok - folks. The pictures in the first post didn't really add anything to the topic. If anything - it could fuel this thread to go the wrong way.

I realize this is a hot button topic - Please be mindful that we are Christians and are called to love others as Christ loves them. Although they may have a different view of things - it doesn't mean our love for them should be any less. THINK BEFORE YOU POST.

clayman - February 24, 2006 03:21 AM (GMT)

Many Muslims in my town. Many of them are the nicest people you'll ever meet. At one point I worked in a group of seven with only two non-Muslims. I had moved on shortly before 9/11. When that occurred, I contacted them and asked them what in the Koran makes them do that. They all said, "It is not there. Radicals are reading it into the Koran."

I have never read the Koran. I keep getting e-mails that say there is a verse that says something about the Eagle must die, and that this refers to the states. I have gone online to a Koran website and cannot find the word Eagle (or eagle) in the Koran.

We all see the news every day. We know that there is a radical segment of the world that hates the US and Britain. We can't pin it down to any one religion, or even religion itself. The simple fact of the matter is that we have a freedom that they either don't have or don't want. Communism would not work in a free environment, which is why the Soviets and the US didn't get along. Radical Islam will not work in a free environment, either. The religious freedom that the Muslims and Hindus and Buddhists enjoy here in the States is why Radical Islam hates us. (Notice I didn't say that Christians enjoy... But that's fodder for another topic.)

Did Christ stand on a street corner and scream "You are all going to hell!"? No, He did not. He got to know people. He taught the truth with love, not venom. We are called to do the same. Am I going to go to every Muslim I see and tell them they are going to hell? No. I have and will talk to them as the subject comes up. Maybe I'll plant a seed. I can only do two things about the hatred that is spreading. I can pray, and I can plead with my fellow Christians to act in love rather than retaliation.

ceres - February 24, 2006 03:27 AM (GMT)

I missed the OP.... but I also worked with a lot of Somoli Muslims before I moved to my all white starchy boring small town. They reminded me of Christians, actually, because some of them were more devout than others, and some of them were more modest than others, etc. So that was interesting. They are very hard to share the faith with because they all saw it as.... pluralism, we are both serving the same God. I know that some Muslims do not believe that but the Somoli ones did (at least thats what they told me). Its like sharing with a Hindu that God came to earth as man, they just say "sure, he's done it 9 times before" :blink: Thank goodness for prayer.

GutterRat - February 24, 2006 03:40 AM (GMT)

QUOTE (ceres @ Feb 23 2006, 09:27 PM)

Just an FYI -

The first post was pictures only! So, you didn't really miss anything.

ceres - February 24, 2006 03:46 AM (GMT)

Hmm well I don't fully understand what is going on here... but this quote was interesting (and it seems we need something to discuss), and I think this might be referring to the Muslim comics right?

"People in my diocese have told me that they are now afraid to speak their
minds in the pub on some major contemporary issues for fear of being
reported, investigated, and perhaps charged," said Wright. "I did not
think I would see such a thing in this country in my lifetime. ... The
word for such a state of affairs is 'tyranny' -- sudden moral climate
change, enforced by thought police."

Hmmm well.... I guess I see both sides. On one side, people should have "free speech" ... on the other side... if "free speech" meant having jokes published in the newspaper in a prominate section labelling "Christians" and then showing things like Waco in comic form.... I would see that as abusing public speech because its not accurate to say that all Christians are like Waco. Bad example I know.

What do you think?

clayman - February 24, 2006 11:06 AM (GMT)

I think they do it all the time, anyway. Google Christian cartoons and you'll come up with a ton of stoopid stuff about Jesus, Mohammed and Abraham on the cross, Jesus in a bar with the disciples, etc. It's nasty stuff, but Christians don't get up in arms about it, even though we worship Jesus.

Sadly, people do compare us to what's on the radio all the time. We are all like Eric Rudolph who bombed abortion clinics and the Olympics. We are all like the Branch Davidians (Waco). We are all like (fill in the blank with your own wacko here). When anyone claiming to be a Christian goes on the rampage, they soil the image of the entire Body.

This is where I get confused about the protests against Mohammed cartoons. Muslims claim not to worship Mohammed. They claim we are polytheistic because they think we worship three gods: Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Yet, they idolize Mohammed and the Koran. They don't put a face on images of Mohammed 'cuz it would be a graven image, but they still put such a high value on him. Why? It doesn't make sense to me.

Stringaling - February 24, 2006 11:32 AM (GMT)

I don't understand--the pictures I posted were of events referred to in the article. Whose eggshells are we walking on around here anyway? Open a newspsper or magazine or newspaper and I'm, sure you could see the same ones...

I'm lost on this one......why were they censored?

Stringaling - February 24, 2006 11:46 AM (GMT)

The pictures I posted were of the Muslims protesting and holding up the signs referred to in the article--How GR sees that as irrelevant--I do not know... Yes there are many muslims here in the States and they live peacefully with us--But in Muslim countries, where they are the majority and Christians are the minority--they don't live so peacefully with the Christians. Christians are forbidden to repair their church buildings when they become delapidated and are forbidden to build new ones. In this way when the buildings fall down from age there will no longer be any Christian churche buildings remaining. Look around the world. Any country that has Muslim majority does not abide peacefully with the Chrstians. They tolerate them, but the Christians have to be on guard at all times.

The things I wanted to discuss is with the rise in Islam--either the faithful, or if youlike-radical--are gaining strength. The hate movement is growing and as this article demonstrates, even the authorities are aiding them in pushing back the Christians. This is not an isolated case where Chrisitans are deemed biggots while other groups such as this particular group of musllims, are supported in their hate speech and crimes. How and what are we supposed to teach our children? At the rate these things are moving I wonder if the time will come in our children's lives (or ours)when they will have to go into hiding to practice their faith, as the early christians did under persecution..The quote ceres pointed out provides good support for this. I believe this is hapening. What should we do?

Off Topic--the cartoons--I googled them and they were nothing to get excited about. Perhaps the muslims who had a fit about them were like bullies just looking for a reason to hate the christians more?

Basil - February 24, 2006 12:38 PM (GMT)

I just heard an interview on NPR yesterday with some important U.S. Middle East policy expert, and he was saying that the "fundamentalist" Islamic sects are gaining a huge amounts of power around the world. An extremist group called the Islamic Brotherhood recently gained a strong foothold in the Egyptian parliment, Hammas gained control of Palestine, and now civil war between extreme and moderate Muslim factions is about to break out in Iraq.

I agree that the most of the Muslims we interact with in the U.S. day to day are peacefully living out their faith among us, but I agree with String that it is much different when they comprise the majority. Say goodbye to women's liberty, religious freedom, freedom of speech, etc. etc. I don't agree with much Pat Robertson says, but a couple years ago he was sharing some scary stuff about the laws of Islam and their worldview. According to him they see the world as broken into two major parts, the world of Islam and the world at war with Islam. Their "sharia" laws restrict womens rights and restrict the rights of the infadel living in their lands. I've heard that according to the Koran they are supposed to protect minorites, but if there is any provocation at all that is seen as challenging Islam, they are perfectly allowed to commit genocide to eliminate that threat.

Many of you may have never heard of it, but in the early 1900s, the Ottoman Muslims committed an atrocity on a similar scope as the holocaust, killing over 2,000,000 Armenian and Orthodox Christians in the modern state of Turkey. Although I lament the Jewish Holocaust, as well, I wish this event would get more attention as well. Here are two links, but be warned there are some graphic photos of victims: http://imia.cc.duth.gr/turkey/gree.e.html and http://www.armenian-genocide.org/photo_wegner.html

The point is that, although we are called to forgive our enemies and live at peace with all men, we must also be as wise as serpents, preserving our faith, amidst this real threat. String is correct, in Muslim nations, they refuse to approve the contruction of new churches, they refuse to allow the repair of old ones, and when the become too run down, they seize them, under the guise of public safety, I would guess. Right now the Christian Patriachate of Constantinople is having the life slowly squeezed out of it. The tens of thousands of Greeks who used to live there in the 1900s, have slowly emmigrated to live in Greece and America where they can have more freedom. Now there are merely a few thousand Greek Christians in Constantinople, and the govermnent requires that the Patriach of Constantinople be chosen among this dwindling population. They also refuse to allow the Patriach to reopen a seminary that was closed in the 1970s, further complicated things.

Also, in Egypt and Sudan, Christians are being terrorized by the Muslim majority. This has been covered in the news to a small degree, but they often leave off the religious labels of the groups committing the crimes to be "politically correct." Christian women are raped, killed, and who villiages terrorized by Muslim oppressors. We need to pray for these people and raise our voices to make sure the world is aware of what is going on, so that we can see Isalm as it really exists and resist its spread. We have many martyrs in the Church who were tortured and killed by Muslims. We must forgive them, but we also must work hard to share the gospel with them, then protect those who convert, because by Islamic law, they are to be killed--and this does happen today.

Basil

clayman - February 24, 2006 12:39 PM (GMT)

Edit: :offtopic: , sorry...

There is a segment of Christianity (Fred Phelps, for example) that demonstrates their hatred for people in a way that soils the entire Body. What can we do about these people? How can we counter-act their news-grabbing actions?

We can love one another. And I don't just mean loving other Christians. We need to find a way to show the love of Christ to everybody. I read a convicting devotional in "Our Daily Bread" called "Rabbit-Hole Christians". I can post the text if you like. The point was that rabbits come out of their hole, watch for enemies and grab food. Then they run back to their hole and live. My daughter's guinea pig is the same way. He stays in his house all day getting fat. I bring him out to run, and he hides under the lip of the kitchen counter or worse - gets between the fridge and counter.

Christians need to be in the trenches, showing love and appreciation for the unloved and unappreciated. <tooting my own horn deleted>

Get involved in prison ministry. Minister to the homeless. The sick are the ones who need a doctor, not the healthy. But minister to them in love. Hellfire and brimstone speeches only drive them away. Do you want someone constantly berating you and telling you you're wrong? What about someone who says, "I have found peace." Do you find that intriguing? What about someone who says, "I am free from..." alcohol or sex addiction or mental illness? "Hey, how'd that happen?"

At this moment, I am working on my blog entry for today. But if you want a heads-up, read 1 Peter 2. Chuck Swindoll taught on this passage yesterday and it was convicting. There's a lot there. And this is from a guy who was convicted by a rooster crowing.

Well, gotta get back to the blog.

Edit: The Blog Entry for today is done. Check it out. I'd like more readers than just myself! :whistle:

Basil - February 24, 2006 12:52 PM (GMT)

QUOTE (clayharryman @ Feb 24 2006, 06:39 AM)

There is a segment of Christianity (Fred Phelps, for example) that demonstrates their hatred for people in a way that soils the entire Body. What can we do about these people? How can we counter-act their news-grabbing actions?

Ugh . . . Phelps! I think his groups have been in my area protesting at the funerals of military personell who've died in Iraq, with signs saying they are being killed because they are defending our country with harbors homosexuals. I'm sure he is like many protestants who believe they are being led by God, but he's definitely missed large sections of Christ's teachings on love and forgiveness.

I don't think it's fair to compare protecting ourselves from the vary real threat of Islam to the actions of someone with very bigotted opinions about homosexuals. We are all sinners and in need of God's mercy, so we should love Muslims, but also struggle to preserve our faith from their attacks. Just like us, they would like to see the whole world convert to their religion, but their god is a false god, having very few of the attributes of the True God, whom we serve.

Basil

clayman - February 24, 2006 01:54 PM (GMT)

My point, exactly. The segment of Christianity to which I referred is the Christian counterpart to the Islamic segment that wants to destroy us.

ceres - February 25, 2006 03:17 AM (GMT)

QUOTE (clayharryman @ Feb 24 2006, 05:06 AM)

Yeah you got me there... and I also laugh at jokes about, like, The Baptist, The Pentecostal, and the Catholic *cough*

Maybe we have a better ability to laugh at ourselves... I wonder if that is a good thing or a bad thing.

ceres - February 25, 2006 03:23 AM (GMT)

QUOTE (Stringaling @ Feb 24 2006, 05:32 AM)

Never question the gods in public young padwan!!!

(just a joke)

clayman - February 25, 2006 01:41 PM (GMT)

QUOTE (ceres @ Feb 24 2006, 09:17 PM)

No, I don't think it's a bad thing. Is it blasphemous? I believe God gave us the ability to laugh. I believe God wants us to laugh. Even if it is about things 'sacred'. Like in the movie "Bruce Almighty". Now, that's a funny movie. But Bruce made God laugh several times. I happen to agree with that theology. God has a sense of humor. He made kids, didn't He?

Ya know, I've laughed at stuff about Jesus that if it were about Mohammed would mean the end of Western Civilization as we know it. And I consider myself to be a fairly devout Christian.

Did Jesus ever ask John to pull His finger? :whistle:

And Islam considers Christ to be a greater prophet than Mohammed. If he is a greater prophet, why don't they get angry over cartoons about Him?

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